America's Cup 2017

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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:32 am

My brain just keeps screaming to move the front foils further forward. It just looks so unstable as it is and no wonder the front keeps diving.

But yes, I know that they're all like this so there is obviously a good reason.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:26 am

One reason is maneuverability. With the foils at the bow turning would be very difficult.

But I think it is less efficient too, I'm not sure of all the reasons but one is that the rudders would now have to perform half the lift. Its more efficient to have one main set of lifting wing surfaces, plus because the rudders rotate its harder to control the lift from them

Compare with an aircraft with main wings in the middle(ish) and the rudder at the back.

But yes, it can get a bit unstable:

Ben getting it right (ish)

Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYGgOhEXQ50&feature=youtu.be


USA getting it wrong

Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cKS2-WsN3Y&feature=youtu.be


USA getting it very wrong

Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DFVs25F4dQ
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Hooli @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:27 pm

Amazingly good to watch considering no engines are involved.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:05 pm

Hooli wrote:Amazingly good to watch considering no engines are involved.


I'm as much a fan of internal combustion engine as anyone, and I've been on boats with plenty of horsepower, but if you get the opportunity to experience a sailing boat I really could not recommend it enough.

Nothing, for me, beats the feeling of wind power over water. It doesn't matter what sort of speed you're making, it's just such a visceral experience - on one hand almost silent and entirely 'natural' while on the other you feel completely connected to the power of nature and the physics of the process in a way that a purely mechanical device could never deliver.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:26 pm

Well put ttwiggy, my experiences of 'pushing on' in a sail boat left me completely blown away (yes) with the sheer power of nature. You can hear and feel the forces at work in away you can't with engine power.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:34 pm

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:Well put ttwiggy, my experiences of 'pushing on' in a sail boat left me completely blown away (yes) with the sheer power of nature. You can hear and feel the forces at work in away you can't with engine power.


It's incredible isn't it? Feeling the force of the wind through the sheets and the way the whole boat almost 'tenses' under the strain. If you get the chance then it's well worth having a 'go' on a wooden ship - particularly something approaching full-rigged - as you can feel the whole thing come alive.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:41 pm

ttwiggy wrote:
Tokyo Sexwale wrote:Well put ttwiggy, my experiences of 'pushing on' in a sail boat left me completely blown away (yes) with the sheer power of nature. You can hear and feel the forces at work in away you can't with engine power.


It's incredible isn't it? Feeling the force of the wind through the sheets and the way the whole boat almost 'tenses' under the strain. If you get the chance then it's well worth having a 'go' on a wooden ship - particularly something approaching full-rigged - as you can feel the whole thing come alive.

I'd love to. I can't imagine how these massive racing rigs must feel onboard either, there must be some enormous forces at work.

Semi-related, a mate of mine used to sail for a living and worked in the superyacht arena where the boats had everything on the options list ticked. He said he'd be on these huge, multi-million pound boats single handedly sailing them as you could do everything electronically - change tack, sails etc. Sounded brilliant.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:50 pm

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
ttwiggy wrote:
Tokyo Sexwale wrote:Well put ttwiggy, my experiences of 'pushing on' in a sail boat left me completely blown away (yes) with the sheer power of nature. You can hear and feel the forces at work in away you can't with engine power.


It's incredible isn't it? Feeling the force of the wind through the sheets and the way the whole boat almost 'tenses' under the strain. If you get the chance then it's well worth having a 'go' on a wooden ship - particularly something approaching full-rigged - as you can feel the whole thing come alive.

I'd love to. I can't imagine how these massive racing rigs must feel onboard either, there must be some enormous forces at work.

Semi-related, a mate of mine used to sail for a living and worked in the superyacht arena where the boats had everything on the options list ticked. He said he'd be on these huge, multi-million pound boats single handedly sailing them as you could do everything electronically - change tack, sails etc. Sounded brilliant.


I've been on a couple of sail boats with electric winches for the hawsers, which is a nice comfort option especially with a big sail to raise, but I couldn't imagine using auto-taking etc as that's part of the fun!

When I was in the RN I got the chance to crew a Victorian schooner off Bermuda that was semi ship-rigged (the main mast was square-rigged with stay sails everywhere else). I didn't get to go aloft as they didn't want any of us getting killed to death, but I remember how you could feel the forces through the decking when we were under full sail and the stays and shrouds were almost singing with tension. Sailing boats are magical things.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Hooli @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:51 pm

Totally agree real sailing ships are magical things.

Those America cup boats seem more like engine less powerboats to my mind, hence my comment.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:55 am

One of the best things about sailing is the sheer range of choices. All give that primaeval joy from being on the water and using the elements to propel you. But you can get anything from a kid in an optimist on their own, or a couple pottering round the coast, or a supercharged offshore team or an AC50 like those up there- and many other options. Some are peaceful, some noisy and dangerous.

I dont think any other sport gives that variety
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Fri May 26, 2017 7:17 pm

Remember this?
Well it starts this weekend (been delayed 24 hours because of too much wind)
Video extract of their last practise sail:
https://www.facebook.com/LandRoverBAR/videos/1265432910242042/

conventional wisdom is that they have been slow in practise. We'll see
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Disastrous @ Fri May 26, 2017 7:30 pm

Dirk wrote:Remember this?
Well it starts this weekend (been delayed 24 hours because of too much wind)
Video extract of their last practise sail:
https://www.facebook.com/LandRoverBAR/videos/1265432910242042/

conventional wisdom is that they have been slow in practise. We'll see



I watched the interview with BA yesterday and he said their straight line speed was lacking in certain conditions but had a demeanour about him which made me think he didn't look too worried about it. Maybe they've cracked it and are waiting to unleash?

That said, it's a long way to the actual Cup isn't it? Mid June iirc?
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Fri May 26, 2017 9:57 pm

Yes, but he has to get through the qualifiers against France, NZ, Japan & Sweden first to even be in the cup to fight against the US. They start this weekend

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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Disastrous @ Sat May 27, 2017 12:06 am

Dirk wrote:Yes, but he has to get through the qualifiers against France, NZ, Japan & Sweden first to even be in the cup to fight against the US. They start this weekend

Image



I think he will though. This feels like Spithill Vs Ainslie somehow...
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Tue May 30, 2017 12:16 pm

Disastrous wrote:

I think he will though. This feels like Spithill Vs Ainslie somehow...

I fear your optimism seems to be misplaced
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Disastrous @ Tue May 30, 2017 12:28 pm

Dirk wrote:
Disastrous wrote:

I think he will though. This feels like Spithill Vs Ainslie somehow...

I fear your optimism seems to be misplaced



Agreed :(
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by CJ+ @ Tue May 30, 2017 1:09 pm

Dirk wrote:Yes, but he has to get through the qualifiers against France, NZ, Japan & Sweden first to even be in the cup to fight against the US. They start this weekend

Image

I don't know anything about sailing or yachts or boats.

But how bluey greeny is that sea? Marvellous.

Also, they sit in little holes. Always wondered about that. What if they want a wee? Does a yacht race last for longer than you'd want to go without one?
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Tue May 30, 2017 1:26 pm

These races only last 20 minutes or so. So bladders should be fine (unless you are on the Japanese or NZ boats that Ben rammed perhaps)

More generally:
Dinghy sailors on longer races (at nationals etc you can be out for 6 hours or so) just piss in their wetsuits unless the weather is calm enough to take it down and piss out

Fully crewed Yachts generally by racing rules have to have a toilet for longer races. Though the rules don't require it to be plumbed in. Yacht toilets are in any case horrible places to be in any weather. Some short crewed boats have no toilets.

So its any combination of:
Hang on and piss/shit over the side/stern
Bucket and chuck it
Chemical portaloos that retain it (had one break loose and dispose of its contents all over the sail storage area once)
Hand pump loos to outside

Doing a crap over the stern in a gale is certainly an experience, with the worlds most powerfui bidet thrown in for free
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Il Duce @ Tue May 30, 2017 1:34 pm

Dirk wrote:These races only last 20 minutes or so. So bladders should be fine (unless you are on the Japanese or NZ boats that Ben rammed perhaps)

More generally:
Dinghy sailors on longer races (at nationals etc you can be out for 6 hours or so) just piss in their wetsuits unless the weather is calm enough to take it down and piss out

Fully crewed Yachts generally by racing rules have to have a toilet for longer races. Though the rules don't require it to be plumbed in. Yacht toilets are in any case horrible places to be in any weather. Some short crewed boats have no toilets.

So its any combination of:
Hang on and piss/shit over the side/stern
Bucket and chuck it
Chemical portaloos that retain it (had one break loose and dispose of its contents all over the sail storage area once)
Hand pump loos to outside

Doing a crap over the stern in a gale is certainly an experience, with the worlds most powerfui bidet thrown in for free


Don't forget the magic of pissing over the side in the dark and watching the sea light up.


Or is that just me post radio therapy?
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Tue May 30, 2017 1:41 pm

No, thats good too in the right conditions
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by ttwiggy @ Tue May 30, 2017 2:23 pm

It's also the reason for most solo yachtsmen rigging a trailing line.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Tue May 30, 2017 11:25 pm

Well if BAR sail like they did today then who knows.
Faster, more stable, better angles. Much better
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Disastrous @ Tue May 30, 2017 11:30 pm

Dirk wrote:Well if BAR sail like they did today then who knows.
Faster, more stable, better angles. Much better



Fastest speed recorded by anyone on the course yet.

But still a little dip round the mark. I think that's where they're doing the damage...Is that easily rectifiable with training (surely by now they're slick??) or is it a boat design thing?
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Wed May 31, 2017 7:45 am

Disastrous wrote:
Dirk wrote:Well if BAR sail like they did today then who knows.
Faster, more stable, better angles. Much better



Fastest speed recorded by anyone on the course yet.

But still a little dip round the mark. I think that's where they're doing the damage...Is that easily rectifiable with training (surely by now they're slick??) or is it a boat design thing?

Hard to tell. Could be crew doing something wrong, it could a pre-defined control sequence of the foils that needs reprogrammingor it could be a lack of hydraulic power.

However it looks like on those foils/tips they are OK, they aren't so quick on other foil/tip combinations though
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by moleamol @ Wed May 31, 2017 8:36 am

CJ+ wrote:
Dirk wrote:Yes, but he has to get through the qualifiers against France, NZ, Japan & Sweden first to even be in the cup to fight against the US. They start this weekend

Image

I don't know anything about sailing or yachts or boats.

But how bluey greeny is that sea? Marvellous.

Have you never been to Cornwall?
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by CJ+ @ Wed May 31, 2017 10:38 am

Don't think I have, now you come to mention it.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed May 31, 2017 10:43 am

Why are all the boats black? No wonder things keep going missing in Bermuda if everything is that dull.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by moleamol @ Wed May 31, 2017 10:50 am

Careless Whisperer wrote:Why are all the boats black? No wonder things keep going missing in Bermuda if everything is that dull.

Wow, that's *ist even for an Irish. You are Irish innit?
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by CJ+ @ Wed May 31, 2017 10:55 am

moleamol wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:Why are all the boats black? No wonder things keep going missing in Bermuda if everything is that dull.

Wow, that's *ist even for an Irish. You are Irish innit?

If he denies it, he's definitely Irish, the massive *ist.
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Re: America's Cup 2017

Post by Dirk @ Wed May 31, 2017 11:13 am

Careless Whisperer wrote:Why are all the boats black?

They aren't

For example the French boat is predominantly white (with red and grey bits)
The Swedish boat is predominantly blue
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