1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

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1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by WalMitty @ Mon May 12, 2014 11:43 am

Image

Hired this for a day.

To give some context to my ramblings, I've never really driven a classic car but have pondering chopping my Elise in for something along these lines.
Additionally, I've always thought of Alfas as being a bit style of substance so was interested to see if this changed my mind. It also goes without saying that an old Alfa Romeo, rwd and no traction control is the best thing ever and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

So, predictable bit early on. The seating position is ridiculous - essentially the seat was far too reclined so I spent most of the day with daylight between my back and the seat. The rest of the interior was nice enough, I especially liked using the wiper toggle switch. I guess all old cars do this, but every time you opened the door the weight of the door forces it to close on your leg.

Alfas, have nice engines dont they? I've no idea what contemporary rivals were like, but I was a bit disappointed really. According to the internet it made about 130bhp when new, to me it felt about 70bhp not that matters. What does matter though is that as soon as you started to rev it, it sounded like a Beetle. It sounded quite nice when blipping down shifts, apart from that it was nothing special. I did like the gearbox though.

Brakes were shit, but then you would expect that. The suspension was awful over bumps, but you would expect that too. The guy gave a big long speech about it not having power steering. My Elise doesnt either, so I ignored him. What I didnt factor in was that my car has a really fast steering rack, the GTV did not. It was like driving a lorry or something, and quite a few times I just could nt get lock on quick enough, so missed the apex so to speak. Quite how a wheelsman would get opposite lock on in one of these, I've no idea. Also the steering was scarily vague, at one point I drove along a dual carriageway at the heady speed of 60mph and I literally (figuratively) shat myself as the car followed every rut, with my steering inputs seemingly having no affect.

Truth is, by the end of the day I was glad to give it back. It just was nt that much fun to drive, and Im comparing this to normal cars not my Lotus. Driving slowly it was a bit of the pain of the ass, fast and it just felt terrible. I dont mind cars you need to work hard to drive, but with this there was just no reward.

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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by minimoog @ Mon May 12, 2014 11:51 am

Sounds to me like it's knackered.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Mon May 12, 2014 11:52 am

:laugh: Good honest review.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by minimoog @ Mon May 12, 2014 12:03 pm

PH Carpool article wrote:The race-derived Weber carburettor-fed engine is a peach, has good low-down torque, and encourages you to rev it hard. When the twin cams really engage around 4,500rpm it just screams to 6,500rpm +, and easing off the accelerator causes unburnt fuel in the exhaust manifold to explode and emit a cacophony of crackles and pops on the overrun. Between 2,000-3,000rpm (until recently, more on that below) it made a spine-tingling multi-tone rasping exhaust note too. Acceleration is not fast compared to today's standards, but brisk enough with 0-60mph in 8.5 seconds. Top speed is 120mph and it cruises between 70 & 80mph, but to me what's more relevant is how special this car feels and the sheer fun I've had with it on the open road at legal speeds.

At just over 1,000kg it's nimble, the chassis has very good balance and handles beautifully, thanks in part to the firm but supple suspension which has been set up by Harvey Bailey for fast road use and the unassisted steering which is very direct and brimming with feel. The car dances along a good B-road, communicating every nuance of the blacktop through the seat and steering wheel. It is such a joy to experience and I understand why these cars won so many touring car championships in the 1960s and early 70s. The all-round disc brakes are servo-assisted and feel strong, although I haven't really had to put them to the test (and I hope I never will!).


Same model car, but doesn't sound much like yours huh?
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by WalMitty @ Mon May 12, 2014 1:09 pm

minimoog wrote:
PH Carpool article wrote:The race-derived Weber carburettor-fed engine is a peach, has good low-down torque, and encourages you to rev it hard. When the twin cams really engage around 4,500rpm it just screams to 6,500rpm +, and easing off the accelerator causes unburnt fuel in the exhaust manifold to explode and emit a cacophony of crackles and pops on the overrun. Between 2,000-3,000rpm (until recently, more on that below) it made a spine-tingling multi-tone rasping exhaust note too. Acceleration is not fast compared to today's standards, but brisk enough with 0-60mph in 8.5 seconds. Top speed is 120mph and it cruises between 70 & 80mph, but to me what's more relevant is how special this car feels and the sheer fun I've had with it on the open road at legal speeds.

At just over 1,000kg it's nimble, the chassis has very good balance and handles beautifully, thanks in part to the firm but supple suspension which has been set up by Harvey Bailey for fast road use and the unassisted steering which is very direct and brimming with feel. The car dances along a good B-road, communicating every nuance of the blacktop through the seat and steering wheel. It is such a joy to experience and I understand why these cars won so many touring car championships in the 1960s and early 70s. The all-round disc brakes are servo-assisted and feel strong, although I haven't really had to put them to the test (and I hope I never will!).


Same model car, but doesn't sound much like yours huh?


This is exactly what I was expecting, especially the engine bit.
It could be knackered, it is after all a 40 year old hire car. It did nt feel broken though.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Turntable @ Mon May 12, 2014 1:28 pm

I like this and I love the discrepancy between the PH article and the reality.
Its like Estate Agent Speak.
"Not quick by todays standards but plenty quick enough" = really slow
"The engine howls and screams" = shit engine
etc


On a different note, though, do you think that PH had given you the wrong idea of what to expect and you might have enjoyed it if you had a different mentality.
For example- I quite like driving 4x4s. Objectively they are completely shit to drive and yet I enjoy them for what they are.
Similarly I went in an old open top Riley not long ago from about 1940. Obviously it was a shit car but it was interesting shit compared when viewed for what it is.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by WalMitty @ Mon May 12, 2014 1:37 pm

Turntable wrote:I like this and I love the discrepancy between the PH article and the reality.
Its like Estate Agent Speak.
"Not quick by todays standards but plenty quick enough" = really slow
"The engine howls and screams" = shit engine
etc


On a different note, though, do you think that PH had given you the wrong idea of what to expect and you might have enjoyed it if you had a different mentality.
For example- I quite like driving 4x4s. Objectively they are completely shit to drive and yet I enjoy them for what they are.
Similarly I went in an old open top Riley not long ago from about 1940. Obviously it was a shit car but it was interesting shit compared when viewed for what it is.


The only other old car I have driven was a Trabant, and I loved it. Obviously, I was expecting to be awful.
Take the PH review though, what are they comparing it to? In my head it was against a modern car, maybe the Alfa is brillant compared to a Cortina or 1970s BMW.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by minimoog @ Mon May 12, 2014 1:38 pm

Turntable wrote:I like this and I love the discrepancy between the PH article and the reality.
Its like Estate Agent Speak.
"Not quick by todays standards but plenty quick enough" = really slow
"The engine howls and screams" = shit engine
etc


In theory though the PH article is the reality. It's written by the owner much the same as you've written about your new 42x4 Volvo.

I imagine JoeSnow is fairly pleased with his too, going by the amount of coin he throws at it.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Dirk @ Mon May 12, 2014 1:51 pm

I had a mate years ago who bought one of these, having been fed to expect something like the PH article. Back then they were cheap old cars rather than classics. He was disappointed too. IIRC he said they were noisy as fcuk because you had to rev the tits off them to get them to do anything at all (In PH speak "lovely engine that revels at the higher revs and provides a delightful feedback for the more discerning driver")
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 2:49 pm

My car is a 1968 step front with a later 1750 engine, so more basic inside than the GTV you drove. I can understand where you are coming from in being a bit underwhelmed, and the PH review sounds like they'd driven either an Alfaholics rebuild, or are the owner.

I'd say there is a big difference between a standard/tired car and an enthusiast owned modded/hotrod/pro touring approach car (hate that term, but you know what I mean).

I've never really elaborated about how mine drives, but I'd say that it is a mixture of the above. Some stuff is tired/poor (but replacable/moddable), some is 'of its time', and some makes me laugh in delight. For its time, it was thought of being quite advanced with disk brakes all round, 5 speed gearbox and a well regarded twin cam engine that powered at least 3 generations of Alfas. The 105 coupe was a very successful touring car racer, so there is potential for a GT if you're looking for a drivers car.

When I got the car the previous owner had spent a lot on the body and hot rodding with a bigger engine, but mechanically it was a bit tired and needed some tlc. I have spent quite a bit of cash and time on the car now, and there is still more to spend to get it to where I personally would like be. The work so far has been to get the car in good order to develop from, and overall it is good fun and has never let me down despite 50mile round days, and using it for months at a time, 7 days a week.

I think mine was in a poorer state of health that the GTV you drove. It stuttered out of junctions due to leaks in the carb mounts and running lean. I solved this by fiting aluminium carb mounts, adjusting the webers to run rich (no choke cable fitted at that time) and replacing the dizzy with electronic ignition. It spun the inside wheel out of junctions due to old hard tyres and an open diff. Grip was also woeful in the rain. The car now has new Dunlops and an Alfaholics lsd fitted and has been transformed in these aspects, but the tyres have also made the ride much more compliant. The rear axle knocked in corners - now rebushed and more confidence inspiring. The brakes were unable to achieve lock up - new disks, agressive pads, braided lines and rebuilt calipers, but no servo, so what you put in you get out, the feel is brilliant though. The seats were from a megane - ripped out and some corbeau buckets fitted which seat me (6'4") low and far back in the car, and hold you in the corners so you don't have to pull on the big steering wheel. Headlights were crap, so fitted some high intensity bulbs and they're actually quite good now. The engine didn't have much above 4000 which was disapointing. I've found that the standard airbox is actually quite restrictive, so I've drilled it out and set up a cold air feed from the grille. I've created holes in the back of the airbox which give a throaty roar from the twin 40 carbs, but you can close them off for longer trips. The engine will happily rev around to 5500 now and is much nicer to drive. The clutch wasn't totally disengaging the gearbox which meant 1st always graunched. Cue lots of time altering the mechanical linkage to sort this. Also the interior door handles didn't work on either door, so you have to wind down the window to get out.

When I bought the car I knew it needed some work. If I was running a classic garage renting these sort of cars, I just wouldn't have the time or inclination to go to this level of effort or expense, but I'd probably have bought a better example to start with.

So what makes me smile then?
The looks, I absolutely love the packaging, lines, proportions and details. The gearbox is quite long throw, but you feel the notch through the shaft and your palm as the cogs engage and it can be rushed, or savoured. On power it'll 4 wheel drift, or in the damp slightly silde, and the feedback through the wheel is delicate as it weights and lightens - you have to be quick though. The engine note is tinny through the exhaust, and the induction noise is very 'Goodwood Revival'. Under the bonnet they are very easy to work on, and parts are readily available and not as pricey as you'd expect. There is a strong enthusiasts following, and companies such as Alfaholics meant that you can easily create a decent road car if you have the cash. Someone is always interested in it when I fill it up with fuel.

I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Mon May 12, 2014 2:54 pm

Joesnow wrote:I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.

I really want to like this phrase but don't understand it.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:03 pm

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
Joesnow wrote:I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.

I really want to like this phrase but don't understand it.


I suppose what I was getting at is that you have to be committed.
Thus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Dirk @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:05 pm

Joesnow wrote:
Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
Joesnow wrote:I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.

I really want to like this phrase but don't understand it.


I suppose what I was getting at is that you have to be committed.
Thus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig

"Have to"or "should"?
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Tumescent Acorn @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:06 pm

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
Joesnow wrote:I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.

I really want to like this phrase but don't understand it.

If you buy a really good example it's like the Hen, you're involved in the thing.
vs
If you buy a bad example it's like the pig, you're fcuked.

Or...

If you put your alfa (cock) up a hen (female chicken) you can pull out (remove your bacon) at the last moment and commit (spaz) all over your wife's bonnet (breakfast/mons pubis).

I also have no idea what it means.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:09 pm

Tumescent Acorn wrote:
Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
Joesnow wrote:I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.

I really want to like this phrase but don't understand it.

If you buy a really good example it's like the Hen, you're involved in the thing.
vs
If you buy a bad example it's like the pig, you're fcuked.

Or...

If you put your alfa (cock) up a hen (female chicken) you can pull out (remove your bacon) at the last moment and commit (spaz) all over your wife's bonnet (breakfast/mons pubis).

I also have no idea what it means.


:)
Forget it!
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by minimoog @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:15 pm

Good write-up Joe, thanks.

Still regularly kick myself at the well-sorted 105 saloon I passed up for £3K or so. Stupid, stupid boy.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by WalMitty @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:20 pm

Joesnow wrote:
So what makes me smile then?
The looks, I absolutely love the packaging, lines, proportions and details. The gearbox is quite long throw, but you feel the notch through the shaft and your palm as the cogs engage and it can be rushed, or savoured. On power it'll 4 wheel drift, or in the damp slightly silde, and the feedback through the wheel is delicate as it weights and lightens - you have to be quick though. The engine note is tinny through the exhaust, and the induction noise is very 'Goodwood Revival'. Under the bonnet they are very easy to work on, and parts are readily available and not as pricey as you'd expect. There is a strong enthusiasts following, and companies such as Alfaholics meant that you can easily create a decent road car if you have the cash. Someone is always interested in it when I fill it up with fuel.

I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.


See your review sounds remarkably balanced, and I have no reason to disagree with any of it.
To be clear I wanted to love it, and feel a bit sad that I did nt.

One question though - does yours have a faster steering rack? I really struggled with it and it would probably be the first thing I modded if I owned one.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Deuteronomy @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:24 pm

I still think they look ace and it'd be great to smoke about in one.

It's not all about driving at ten tenths PH shit, classic motoring is also about enjoying it for what it is.

>Scene cuts to a hillside in Corsica in the 60's, a pretty blonde in the passenger seat is laughing as you drive down to the cost, picnic basket in the boot filled with wine, cold meats and cheeses.

Sure, she's a journalist and she's there to do a job, you're a retired jewel thief and she wants an article. But you know there'll be more.

Andy Williams plays in the background as you take another corner in the bright sunshine, your Alfa as willing a partner as you know the blonde is going to be<
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:36 pm

WalMitty wrote:
Joesnow wrote:
So what makes me smile then?
The looks, I absolutely love the packaging, lines, proportions and details. The gearbox is quite long throw, but you feel the notch through the shaft and your palm as the cogs engage and it can be rushed, or savoured. On power it'll 4 wheel drift, or in the damp slightly silde, and the feedback through the wheel is delicate as it weights and lightens - you have to be quick though. The engine note is tinny through the exhaust, and the induction noise is very 'Goodwood Revival'. Under the bonnet they are very easy to work on, and parts are readily available and not as pricey as you'd expect. There is a strong enthusiasts following, and companies such as Alfaholics meant that you can easily create a decent road car if you have the cash. Someone is always interested in it when I fill it up with fuel.

I think a good classic car is a bit like a the difference in a cooked breakfast - the hen was involved, but the pig was committed.


See your review sounds remarkably balanced, and I have no reason to disagree with any of it.
To be clear I wanted to love it, and feel a bit sad that I did nt.

One question though - does yours have a faster steering rack? I really struggled with it and it would probably be the first thing I modded if I owned one.


You can buy a set of shorter steering arms that are the same spec as the GTA (the lightweight homologation model). They are around £195 and a mod I'd like to do.
One thing to add is that older cars like this, much like basic modern cars, allow you to access the dynamics at lower speeds, and that really appeals to me. For me its a desirable enough model to put up with its shortcomings, and work on the ones that can be made better. If I just had the Alfa it would drive me insane, but its nice for weekends, summer days, shorter road trips and classic track days. The daily E46 BMW is so much better in every perceivable way, but lacks the charater and the romance of the Alfa.

We used to have an E-type which had a lot of promise, but it was terrible to drive, automatic, untuned carbs, tired suspension, and chassis tubes that were missing in a couple of places.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Turntable @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:37 pm

I think that if you take a cow and gut it, dress the chicken in a face mask made out of the spleen, feed the pig with peanuts until it is sick, then feed the peanut sick back into the cow and sew it up, and then push the chicken inside the pigs arse so when the chicken lays the egg, it comes out of the pig and looks like the pig is laying an egg.
Owning a classic car is like that, at least that's how I interpret what Joesnow said.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:40 pm

Turntable wrote:I think that if you take a cow and gut it, dress the chicken in a face mask made out of the spleen, feed the pig with peanuts until it is sick, then feed the peanut sick back into the cow and sew it up, and then push the chicken inside the pigs arse so when the chicken lays the egg, it comes out of the pig and looks like the pig is laying an egg.
Owning a classic car is like that, at least that's how I interpret what Joesnow said.


FY!
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Mon May 12, 2014 3:59 pm

I really want to like your car JS and did until today. Now Walmitty has shone a truth torch right up its backside and that makes me sick.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 4:05 pm

I'm sorry to hear that TS, and I empathise as I have read the ghastly Homebrewing thread.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Mon May 12, 2014 4:06 pm

That thread is like an albatross about my person.
Forget the fact I microbrew, it's still me, papa-Tokyo Sexwale.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by Joesnow @ Mon May 12, 2014 4:09 pm

Understood.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by thekungfury @ Mon May 12, 2014 4:15 pm

Isn't it just that it's an old car? Nice to look at but varying degrees of shit to drive, let alone live with. People who love them will forgive the shit but people who merely like them won't.
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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by minimoog @ Mon May 12, 2014 4:47 pm

TKF wrote:Isn't it just that it's an old car? Nice to look at but varying degrees of shit to drive, let alone live with. People who love them will forgive the shit but people who merely like them won't.


Yeah of course, to a point. But it does sound like Mittso got a duffer and something with freshened underpinnings and a engine in decent tune wouldn't have left him with such a lip on.

The PH owner's car has the Harvey-Bailey handling kit which tightens everything up.

Anyway, still want

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Re: 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV - DrIveN

Post by thekungfury @ Mon May 12, 2014 7:11 pm

I also want but not for how it drives.
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