Scottish Independence

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Scottish Independence

Post by Dirk @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:45 pm

So we don't have long to debate this, because Salmond is very keen on a vote, so we only have um 2 years and 8 months

So
1) Will the Scottish vote for it?
2) Would the English vote to be rid of them if we had chance?
3) What do the Scottish think should rightly belong to them as part of the divorce settlement?
4) What do the English think likewise?
5) If defence and a few other things are shared, who will decide how much to spend?
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Dr Wolff @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:57 pm

We will, of course invade to support the freedom fighters in their quest for democracy protect our oil...

Sorry, wrong country
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Doctor Congo @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:08 pm

1) Will the Scottish vote for it? No
2) Would the English vote to be rid of them if we had chance? No
3) What do the Scottish think should rightly belong to them as part of the divorce settlement?whatever is left of the oil/gas
4) What do the English think likewise? whatever is left of the oil/gas
5) If defence and a few other things are shared, who will decide how much to spend? If they get independence? Presumably Salmond will decide.... If not the status quo
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Dirk @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:12 pm

968 wrote:5) If defence and a few other things are shared, who will decide how much to spend? If they get independence? Presumably Salmond will decide....

But thats what I don't get. He is saying independence, but with shared defence, so how can he then decide to put in less than the English govt?
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Doctor Congo @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:13 pm

Arthur Scherbius wrote:
968 wrote:5) If defence and a few other things are shared, who will decide how much to spend? If they get independence? Presumably Salmond will decide....

But thats what I don't get. He is saying independence, but with shared defence, so how can he then decide to put in less than the English govt?


I don't think those sort of trivial details bother him. He quite literally wants his cake and eat it.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:46 pm

968 wrote:
Arthur Scherbius wrote:
968 wrote:5) If defence and a few other things are shared, who will decide how much to spend? If they get independence? Presumably Salmond will decide....

But thats what I don't get. He is saying independence, but with shared defence, so how can he then decide to put in less than the English govt?


I don't think those sort of trivial details bother him. He quite literally wants his cake and eat it.

Without Scotland and its nice hidden away deep lochs miles from any significant population centres where would you park the nuclear subs?

Anyway, independence is a bloody stupid idea and if it weren't for Salmonds personality it'd be laughed out. The SNP only got in because Labour are a shambles up here just now and nobody votes for the Tories because they fcuked up royally and are nothing more than a sideshow these days sadly.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Ghost @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:36 am

Just heard Salmond blathering on about not being dictated to on this issue by English MP's. In which case, perhaps all the Scottish MP's sitting in London could just fcuk right back in a northerly direction?
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Scottish Independence

Post by Käsemeister @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:39 am

Ghost wrote:Just heard Salmond blathering on about not being dictated to on this issue by English MP's. In which case, perhaps all the Scottish MP's sitting in London could just fcuk right back in a northerly direction?


The age old argument, which also conveniently ignores the fact that his govt only exists because of special dispensation from ours and the monarch.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by morebeanz @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:40 am

Ghost wrote:Just heard Salmond blathering on about not being dictated to on this issue by English MP's. In which case, perhaps all the Scottish MP's sitting in London could just fcuk right back in a northerly direction?


I'm sure they will just as soon as Westminster does not vote on a number of Scottish issues...
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Tumescent Acorn @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:52 am

Arthur Scherbius wrote:1) Will the Scottish vote for it? - Maybe, just
2) Would the English vote to be rid of them if we had chance? - Maybe, just

3) What do the Scottish think should rightly belong to them as part of the divorce settlement? - They'll want all of the NS oil and anything else they can possibly claim is in their waters, of course. And they'll need it all.
Scotland's economy is in some ways worse than many areas of England's, except perhaps the North East. Even with Oil it'll be marginal, and once that runs out they'd have to go begging.
Salmond makes a bit play of joining the EU and presumably enjoying the safety net of its support, a la Romania, Portugal and the other poor members. Will the EU want another long term development committment (ie money sponge) right now ? I'm thinking not really.
What would happen to much of the economic activity after independence would probably be decided by choices on long term policy on membership of the Euro and taxation. A decision to join the Euro (they would have to commit to this in order to get any EU support) might mean extra costs for businesses predominantly based in England. Higher taxes would of course push all business away.


4) What do the English think likewise? - Obviously England would want to retain some share of NS oil. They'd have an argument since no doubt millions of English tax payers' pounds went into its development. I would guess in the end there would be a sharing of the oil, with a minority share to England.
5) If defence and a few other things are shared, who will decide how much to spend? - In the short term we would have to share defence because so much infrastructrue lie sin Scotland. Yet again this was paid for mostly through English taxes, so how in the longer term Scotlands pays England for this I don't know.
In the longer term Scotland would of course aim (be forced ?) to reduce its defence spend to near zero, relying on the shelter of NATO ~ perhaps committing some of its excellent infantry to UN stuff. England would want to retain Nuclear capability and a seat at the UN, and would probably want to withdraw much of its spend currently going into Scotland. England would however probably want to retain some rapid response air cover and naval facilities in Scotland to protect the areas in the north.

Right now, I would not fancy taking a gamble on setting up a new and small economy, especially one not exactly bursting with potential.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Gnostic Ascent @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:13 am

I don't believe Scotland should be independent. The current devolution is sufficient.

It appears to me when I now visit my folks in Scotland that more money has been spent on local infrastructure than was ever spent before devolution. So I think that devolution has been a good thing for Scotland.

Independence has the allure of further improvements to the Scottish economy and ability to spend on what the Scots see fit but I think after a few years people will realise that devolution was sufficient.

The problem Salmond has is that the SNP has independence at the heart of their politics and cannot back down from this position. I bet that in the two and a half years from now, that Salmond is demanding the referendum, that Salmond is no longer the leader of the party. Salmond probably has a better understanding of how damaging independence could potentially be to Scotland having actually been in power and seen things first hand.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by tanglerat @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:33 am

Scotch independence will be interesting, and not all in a good way. I remember drinking in London with an Oban lad about 10 years ago and this came up. He had genuine worries about social cohesion splitting along sectarian lines.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by TVR_Leigh @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:13 pm

I wonder if they will take on there % of the national debt.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Gnostic Ascent @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:00 pm

TVR_Leigh wrote:I wonder if they will take on there % of the national debt.



Good one. hahahahahahahaha.........

The argument will go something like....."well if we had been in control we would never have run up such a deficit. Now fcuk off you sasanach cnut."
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:54 pm

Gnostic Ascent wrote:
TVR_Leigh wrote:I wonder if they will take on there % of the national debt.



Good one. hahahahahahahaha.........

The argument will go something like....."well if we had been in control we would never have run up such a deficit. Now fcuk off you sasanach cnut."

To which they'd rightly reply "That Gordon Brown chap, he's from where exactly?" :hehe:
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:58 pm

tanglerat wrote:Scotch independence will be interesting, and not all in a good way. I remember drinking in London with an Oban lad about 10 years ago and this came up. He had genuine worries about social cohesion splitting along sectarian lines.

Very true, we badly need rid of the separate schools for catholic children, they only serve to instil in kids that they're different when in actual fact they're not, they even believe in the same God, the only real difference being the amount of gold shit in the respective churches. And the child rape of course.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:00 pm

Gnostic Ascent wrote:I don't believe Scotland should be independent. The current devolution is sufficient.

It appears to me when I now visit my folks in Scotland that more money has been spent on local infrastructure than was ever spent before devolution. So I think that devolution has been a good thing for Scotland.

Independence has the allure of further improvements to the Scottish economy and ability to spend on what the Scots see fit but I think after a few years people will realise that devolution was sufficient.

The problem Salmond has is that the SNP has independence at the heart of their politics and cannot back down from this position. I bet that in the two and a half years from now, that Salmond is demanding the referendum, that Salmond is no longer the leader of the party. Salmond probably has a better understanding of how damaging independence could potentially be to Scotland having actually been in power and seen things first hand.

Salmond stood down once before, it was a disaster for them, the SNP are a rag tag of crazy people and it's testament to how good Salmond is at what he does that they're even half way credible. If he steps down they'll fade away again.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Dirk @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:13 pm

There are many good points, but a lot highlight where the whole thing makes no sense.

They want a legally binding referendum, so if they vote for independence they get it. But only after the vote will they start to negotiate all the tricky bits like their share of the national debt, ownership of oil fields etc

Ah shit, if they do go and don't take enough of the debt with them, we'll just invade. The Scots should be please, they've been singing about when they'll get a chance to send us home again for 700 years.

SNP don't want the Trident boats, so we'll have them, and the rest of the Navy which is based in South
They can have the Scottish regiments - 7 battalions. We'll have the rest of the army
They seem to have 4 squadrons of Tornados and a SAR squadron. We'll take the rest

Fair?

If that sounds childish, it is merely reflecting how Salmond sounds:
"I don't like playing with you lot, you're bigger and better than me, I want to take the ball and go and play on my own. "
"We paid for 9/10 of the ball"
"well I want my 1/10 of the ball then"
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:00 pm

Arthur Scherbius wrote: they've been singing about when they'll get a chance to send us home again for 700 years.

Flower of Scotland was only written in 1965 ;)
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Dirk @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:02 pm

deev wrote:
Arthur Scherbius wrote: they've been singing about when they'll get a chance to send us home again for 700 years.

Flower of Scotland was only written in 1965 ;)

Just seems like it then
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:04 pm

Käsemeister wrote:
Ghost wrote:Just heard Salmond blathering on about not being dictated to on this issue by English MP's. In which case, perhaps all the Scottish MP's sitting in London could just fcuk right back in a northerly direction?


The age old argument, which also conveniently ignores the fact that his govt only exists because of special dispensation from ours and the monarch.

you don't have your own parliament to call "(y)ours" westminsters is as much ours as yours, possibly more ours really as our MP's get to vote on your affairs but not vice versa, that must kinda suck really :D
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:05 pm

Arthur Scherbius wrote:
deev wrote:
Arthur Scherbius wrote: they've been singing about when they'll get a chance to send us home again for 700 years.

Flower of Scotland was only written in 1965 ;)

Just seems like it then

well, you are quite old ;)
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Dirk @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:13 pm

deev wrote:
Käsemeister wrote:
Ghost wrote:Just heard Salmond blathering on about not being dictated to on this issue by English MP's. In which case, perhaps all the Scottish MP's sitting in London could just fcuk right back in a northerly direction?


The age old argument, which also conveniently ignores the fact that his govt only exists because of special dispensation from ours and the monarch.

you don't have your own parliament to call "(y)ours" westminsters is as much ours as yours, possibly more ours really as our MP's get to vote on your affairs but not vice versa, that must kinda suck really :D

There are no votes at Westminster upon which English MPs cannot vote
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Dirk @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:15 pm

The made up words thread makes me think that Scotland should be allowed their own country. Provided they all go and speak their own language. Speaking Gaelic will soon teach them
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:16 pm

Arthur Scherbius wrote:
deev wrote:
Käsemeister wrote:
Ghost wrote:Just heard Salmond blathering on about not being dictated to on this issue by English MP's. In which case, perhaps all the Scottish MP's sitting in London could just fcuk right back in a northerly direction?


The age old argument, which also conveniently ignores the fact that his govt only exists because of special dispensation from ours and the monarch.

you don't have your own parliament to call "(y)ours" westminsters is as much ours as yours, possibly more ours really as our MP's get to vote on your affairs but not vice versa, that must kinda suck really :D

There are no votes at Westminster upon which English MPs cannot vote

youre right, I worded that badly, I meant the devolved issues being for MSP's yet the same issues pertaining to England can still be voted on by Scots MP's.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:20 pm

Arthur Scherbius wrote:Scotland should be allowed their own country

you see thats the kind of little Englander thinking that pisses folk off, it's not about being "allowed" our own country, we have that already, it's whether we choose that it remains part of the Union of which we are equal partners with the other nations, England just happening to be the biggest.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by WD40 @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:36 pm

Can someone from either side of the border please explain to me what things Scotland will gain from secession from the UK/what the rest of the UK will lose by it?

If this happens, would this set the precedent for Wales and Northern Ireland to follow suit?
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by deev @ Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:46 pm

WD40 wrote:Can someone from either side of the border please explain to me what things Scotland will gain from secession from the UK/what the rest of the UK will lose by it?

If this happens, would this set the precedent for Wales and Northern Ireland to follow suit?

nobody really knows aside from the government and I doubt theyre even sure and going on assumptions and stuff theyre told by actuaries. Pro independence Scots reckon we get a land of milk and honey where we get fat and rich on oil money as the evil English wont be able to nick it anymore and spend it all in London. Or we end up like Ireland due to all the lazy scum we have up here.

The truth as ever is probably somewhere in between and in no way worth splitting up the union over.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by WD40 @ Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:09 am

deev wrote:nobody really knows aside from the government


So what on Earth would be the point in a referendum if the people don't understand the potential implications of their decision?
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Towie @ Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:42 am

WD40 wrote:
deev wrote:nobody really knows aside from the government


So what on Earth would be the point in a referendum if the people don't understand the potential implications of their decision?

Mmmm. As if everyone understands what they are voting for at the General Election!
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