What are the positives of leaving Europe?

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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:05 pm

Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Deuteronomy @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:07 pm

jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


>sigh<

You always forget the benefits of immigration, the taxes generated, the skills etc etc.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Dirk @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:09 pm

jimbob wrote:
Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.

But legal immigration also plays its part in filling the national coffers with money because they work and pay tax.

And because immigrants tend to be younger they contribute now when our ageing population would tend to be draining the coffers more.

And as 968 has pointed out, a lot of NHS staff are immigrants

So actually legal immigration is overall reducing the strain on the NHS resources
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Hooli @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:11 pm

jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Rod Rammage @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:15 pm

Dirk wrote:
So actually legal immigration is overall reducing the strain on the NHS resources


That's speculation Dirk.

Plus like I said before, there's a difference between nice filipino nurses and horrid romanian gypsies.

We should let in the helpful ones with tits and keep out the smelly thieves.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Deuteronomy @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:16 pm

Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.


Yes, I'm sure* - where did you see this then?







* Not sure.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:16 pm

Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.


That's very convenient isn't it? I mean, we know there's a national shortage of doctors/nurses and we can't train enough, but strangely you know that there are better trained applicants in this country who couldn't get jobs. Or perhaps it's nonsense. I think that's more likely.

With regards to the immigration aspect, jim, I'm afraid you're talking out of your arsehole. If immigration hadn't happened or was drastically less, the NHS for a start would collapse, because we cannot fill vacancies in this country as we do not have the skills locally to do so. This is why we advertise overseas for doctors and why the NHS has done so for 50 years. The number of immigrants that are a 'burden' is far less than those that contribute, however, because they happen to be foreign, it's easy for Kippers and other wankers to point the finger of blame at them, for society's ills.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:20 pm

Turntable wrote:
jimbob wrote:
968 wrote:Interesting theory but with regards to the NHS, utter bollocks. The demand is increasing because the population is ageing and getting fatter rather than billions of immigrants abusing the system.



I realise you are in the medical profession and as such are better placed to judge than me however to try claim immigration is not taking a toll on the NHS is just stupid. It takes a toll on all sectors and I see its effect in the areas of the public sector in which I am involved.

There has been a massive population growth under Labour and most of those who came to the UK are from countries where big families are the norm and that places a huge strain on the NHS which is not used to coping with such a large increase. Some are migrants but a majority are asylum seekers and they come from countries where big families are the norm.

The cost of the open door asylum program is easily in the hundreds of millions as at one point in the early days of the open door policy I worked as a courier and part of my job was to stop at a variety of hotels in one town and drop off benefits packages to asylum seekers which included pre paid cash cards etc. Then you factor in how much was being spent on keeping them in the hotels and feeding them and policing them and providing healthcare etc. It all adds up.

I was brought up to believe charity begins at home and when the UK's infrastructure is crumbling the last thing that is needed is uncontrolled borders allowing in unlimited numbers of people. The UK should take care of those who are already here and contributing. The hundreds of millions being wasted on Asylum seekers and so on should be getting spent on nurses, doctors, police, schools and so on.

Between 1992 an 2001 the population grew by around 1 million people. Between 2001 and 2010 it grew by nearly 3 million and that rate is increasing.


Jimbob, do you know what "asylum" means?
Asylum seekers have nothing whatsoever to do with Europe. Same as illegal immigrants. Our membership of the EU will not affect the numbers of either of those things one iota.
Have you noticed you talk in rhetoric rather than facts, like every other anti-immigration person?
In that long speech of yours you have one fact about the population increase and then a whole lecture containing phrases like "MASSIVE PROBLEM" "CANT COPE".

Like everyone with the same opinion as yours you ignore anything that suggests your opinion might not be factually correct in favour of rhetoric.
Jimbob wrote:I realise you are in the medical profession and as such are better placed to judge than me ...........takes toll.....large increase.....can't cope....cost of hotels....


A little challenge for you, to yourself. Firstly, learn the difference between asylum seeker, illegal immigrant, and European migrant.
Then write down a list of what you believe the negatives are to the current policy. You know the ones "cost us billions", "nhs straining at the seams because of it", our roads are terrible", "they are putting us out of jobs" etc etc and actually try and find some cold hard facts to support your beliefs. You'll be taken a lot more seriously if you can do that rather than just give anecdotes about being a courier.



Incredibly I know what the meaning of the words but for the purposes of the forum and to avoid any more time wasted...

asylum noun (PROTECTION)
› [U] ​protection or ​safety, ​especially that given by a ​government to ​people who have been ​forced to ​leave ​their own ​countries for ​their ​safety or because of ​war:
to ​seek/​apply for ​political asylum

immigrant
noun [C] UK /ˈɪm.ɪ.ɡrənt/ US /ˈɪm.ə.ɡrənt/

B2 a ​person who has come to a different ​country in ​order to ​live there ​permanently:
a ​large immigrant ​population
Illegal immigrants are ​sent back ​across the ​border if they are ​caught. (Theoretically however often not the case)


So. What do you define all the people flooding Europe as presently coming into Europe on boats ? British citizens who got lost sightseeing???

They are illegal immigrants some of whom become Asylum seekers when they reach the UK in the back of lorries etc. A lot of them either do not claim asylum until "caught" and simply work and live here illegally.

Trusting any figures you read on numbers is beyond idiotic as no one truly knows as the government goes to great lengths to make sure the numbers are massively rigged and because half the time the government doesn't even know the people exist.

Maybe you have not noticed how the government changes the way things are reported by police for example to make the figures look better. They get criticised for robbery figures increasing for example so they change what defines a robbery from someone has had something stolen from their person to someone who has been beaten nearly to death for their nokia mobile phone and as if by magic next time the numbers for robbery come out robberies show as decreasing as nobody owns a nokia anymore anyway.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:20 pm

Turntable wrote:
jimbob wrote:
968 wrote:Interesting theory but with regards to the NHS, utter bollocks. The demand is increasing because the population is ageing and getting fatter rather than billions of immigrants abusing the system.



I realise you are in the medical profession and as such are better placed to judge than me however to try claim immigration is not taking a toll on the NHS is just stupid. It takes a toll on all sectors and I see its effect in the areas of the public sector in which I am involved.

There has been a massive population growth under Labour and most of those who came to the UK are from countries where big families are the norm and that places a huge strain on the NHS which is not used to coping with such a large increase. Some are migrants but a majority are asylum seekers and they come from countries where big families are the norm.

The cost of the open door asylum program is easily in the hundreds of millions as at one point in the early days of the open door policy I worked as a courier and part of my job was to stop at a variety of hotels in one town and drop off benefits packages to asylum seekers which included pre paid cash cards etc. Then you factor in how much was being spent on keeping them in the hotels and feeding them and policing them and providing healthcare etc. It all adds up.

I was brought up to believe charity begins at home and when the UK's infrastructure is crumbling the last thing that is needed is uncontrolled borders allowing in unlimited numbers of people. The UK should take care of those who are already here and contributing. The hundreds of millions being wasted on Asylum seekers and so on should be getting spent on nurses, doctors, police, schools and so on.

Between 1992 an 2001 the population grew by around 1 million people. Between 2001 and 2010 it grew by nearly 3 million and that rate is increasing.


Jimbob, do you know what "asylum" means?
Asylum seekers have nothing whatsoever to do with Europe. Same as illegal immigrants. Our membership of the EU will not affect the numbers of either of those things one iota.
Have you noticed you talk in rhetoric rather than facts, like every other anti-immigration person?
In that long speech of yours you have one fact about the population increase and then a whole lecture containing phrases like "MASSIVE PROBLEM" "CANT COPE".

Like everyone with the same opinion as yours you ignore anything that suggests your opinion might not be factually correct in favour of rhetoric.
Jimbob wrote:I realise you are in the medical profession and as such are better placed to judge than me ...........takes toll.....large increase.....can't cope....cost of hotels....


A little challenge for you, to yourself. Firstly, learn the difference between asylum seeker, illegal immigrant, and European migrant.
Then write down a list of what you believe the negatives are to the current policy. You know the ones "cost us billions", "nhs straining at the seams because of it", our roads are terrible", "they are putting us out of jobs" etc etc and actually try and find some cold hard facts to support your beliefs. You'll be taken a lot more seriously if you can do that rather than just give anecdotes about being a courier.



Incredibly I know what the meaning of the words but for the purposes of the forum and to avoid any more time wasted...

asylum noun (PROTECTION)
› [U] ​protection or ​safety, ​especially that given by a ​government to ​people who have been ​forced to ​leave ​their own ​countries for ​their ​safety or because of ​war:
to ​seek/​apply for ​political asylum

immigrant
noun [C] UK /ˈɪm.ɪ.ɡrənt/ US /ˈɪm.ə.ɡrənt/

B2 a ​person who has come to a different ​country in ​order to ​live there ​permanently:
a ​large immigrant ​population
Illegal immigrants are ​sent back ​across the ​border if they are ​caught. (Theoretically however often not the case)


So. What do you define all the people flooding Europe as presently coming into Europe on boats ? British citizens who got lost sightseeing???

They are illegal immigrants some of whom become Asylum seekers when they reach the UK in the back of lorries etc. A lot of them either do not claim asylum until "caught" and simply work and live here illegally.

Trusting any figures you read on numbers is beyond idiotic as no one truly knows as the government goes to great lengths to make sure the numbers are massively rigged and because half the time the government doesn't even know the people exist.

Maybe you have not noticed how the government changes the way things are reported by police for example to make the figures look better. They get criticised for robbery figures increasing for example so they change what defines a robbery from someone has had something stolen from their person to someone who has been beaten nearly to death for their nokia mobile phone and as if by magic next time the numbers for robbery come out robberies show as decreasing as nobody owns a nokia anymore anyway.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:24 pm

jimbob wrote:
Incredibly I know what the meaning of the words but for the purposes of the forum and to avoid any more time wasted...



Amazing. I genuinely think you don't understand the words, despite spelling them out.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:25 pm

968 wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.


That's very convenient isn't it? I mean, we know there's a national shortage of doctors/nurses and we can't train enough, but strangely you know that there are better trained applicants in this country who couldn't get jobs. Or perhaps it's nonsense. I think that's more likely.

With regards to the immigration aspect, jim, I'm afraid you're talking out of your arsehole. If immigration hadn't happened or was drastically less, the NHS for a start would collapse, because we cannot fill vacancies in this country as we do not have the skills locally to do so. This is why we advertise overseas for doctors and why the NHS has done so for 50 years. The number of immigrants that are a 'burden' is far less than those that contribute, however, because they happen to be foreign, it's easy for Kippers and other wankers to point the finger of blame at them, for society's ills.


No its you who is talking out his arse.

I never said immigration should be stopped nor did I say it was bad. What I have said is immigration should be controlled so that we can get the best people we need to staff the NHS and the UK as a whole. To do that we have to control who comes and who goes. As is very often pointed out and ignored we make it piss easy for over 500 million people in Europe to come and go as they please but make it extremely difficult for someone outside the EU to get into the UK who may be better qualified.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Deuteronomy @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:26 pm

Like all screaming right-wingers Jim, you confuse illegal immigration with actual immigration.

EVERYONE thinks illegal immigration is a bad thing, which is why it's illegal.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Hooli @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:28 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.


Yes, I'm sure* - where did you see this then?







* Not sure.


Worthing hospital around 2000, hence my hope it's changed. Student nurses who'd trained at the hospital weren't allowed to apply for the jobs they'd been doing as the jobs were earmarked for staff who once bought over had to be trained for a month or so before being 'let loose'.

It happened, I hope it doesn't happen now. Get over it.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Deuteronomy @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:34 pm

Hooli wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.


Yes, I'm sure* - where did you see this then?







* Not sure.


Worthing hospital around 2000, hence my hope it's changed. Student nurses who'd trained at the hospital weren't allowed to apply for the jobs they'd been doing as the jobs were earmarked for staff who once bought over had to be trained for a month or so before being 'let loose'.

It happened, I hope it doesn't happen now. Get over it.


Yes, I'm sure* it was exactly like that and you have all the facts as it makes absolute sense** for any hospital to behave like that.






*Not sure
** No sense
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:36 pm

jimbob wrote:
No its you who is talking out his arse.

I never said immigration should be stopped nor did I say it was bad. What I have said is immigration should be controlled so that we can get the best people we need to staff the NHS and the UK as a whole. To do that we have to control who comes and who goes. As is very often pointed out and ignored we make it piss easy for over 500 million people in Europe to come and go as they please but make it extremely difficult for someone outside the EU to get into the UK who may be better qualified.


Hmmm let's see someone who has worked as a clinician within the NHS for 20 years versus a blowhard who doesn't like immigrants, I wonder who's talking out their arse?

Actually you did say precisely that immigration was the reason why the NHS was struggling:

"I realise you are in the medical profession and as such are better placed to judge than me however to try claim immigration is not taking a toll on the NHS is just stupid. It takes a toll on all sectors and I see its effect in the areas of the public sector in which I am involved."

I'm afraid I'm not stupid, in fact working within the NHS I see that without immigration it would have been defunct many years ago, and frankly you are stupid to cling onto this Kipper obsession that immigrants are the root of all evil and societal pressure. It's utter bollocks which is appealing to the lowest common denominator.

The free movement of european citizens has meant that many skilled workers, such as within the NHS, can come to this country and work. The difficulties faced by non-EU workers is a reflection on our governments policies rather than the EU.
Last edited by Doctor Congo on Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:43 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:Like all screaming right-wingers Jim, you confuse illegal immigration with actual immigration.

EVERYONE thinks illegal immigration is a bad thing, which is why it's illegal.



Oh ffs I don't confuse either. I have REPEATEDLY said I have no issue with immigration. I have an issue with Illegal Immigration and Asylum seekers and the fact we have an open border policy.

What you all seem to fail to grasp is there are a lot more illegal immigrants and asylum seekers than are reported because I am willing to bet for example that the government departments classify those who have applied as not having Asylum status so it wont show in the official figures for those granted Asylum. They will then massage the classification for Asylum seekers as those who have applied so that for example those who are in removal centres awaiting appeal will not be put in the category as asylum seekers so they get lost in the system.

You then have all those who are here who are not even on the government or any other recorded system working and living illegally.

Has no one here noticed how walls/barriers are going up all across the schengen free movement zone?? The only reason we have got away so easily so far is because we have a moderately controlled border however across Europe our european partners have let in millions of asylum seekers in many cases granting asylum and in the end freedom to move freely across the EU which includes the UK but often without any checks on who they are and whether they have anything in terms of skills we need or criminal backgrounds.

As is also pointed out we are steadily increasing the minimum wage in the UK to one of the highest in europe anyone who think people are not going to migrate to the UK for wages is crazy yet the plan is to include Turkey in the Euro zone as well so yet more people living in a country with low wages will have access to the UK.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Disastrous @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:48 pm

jimbob wrote:there are a lot more illegal immigrants...because...I am willing to bet



This is the thing you guys seem to keep missing.

You all seem to KNOW that what you say is fact because "You are willing to bet"...
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:50 pm

968 wrote:
jimbob wrote:
No its you who is talking out his arse.

I never said immigration should be stopped nor did I say it was bad. What I have said is immigration should be controlled so that we can get the best people we need to staff the NHS and the UK as a whole. To do that we have to control who comes and who goes. As is very often pointed out and ignored we make it piss easy for over 500 million people in Europe to come and go as they please but make it extremely difficult for someone outside the EU to get into the UK who may be better qualified.


Hmmm let's see someone who has worked as a clinician within the NHS for 20 years versus a blowhard who doesn't like immigrants, I wonder who's talking out their arse?

Actually you did say precisely that immigration was the reason why the NHS was struggling:

"I realise you are in the medical profession and as such are better placed to judge than me however to try claim immigration is not taking a toll on the NHS is just stupid. It takes a toll on all sectors and I see its effect in the areas of the public sector in which I am involved."

I'm afraid I'm not stupid, in fact working within the NHS I see that without immigration it would have been defunct many years ago, and frankly you are stupid to cling onto this Kipper obsession that immigrants are the root of all evil and societal pressure. It's utter bollocks which is appealing to the lowest common denominator.

The free movement of european citizens has meant that many skilled workers, such as within the NHS, can come to this country and work. The difficulties faced by non-EU workers is a reflection on our governments policies rather than the EU.



No wonder you work for the NHS. Immigration will take it toll on the NHS. I realise it may be hard for you to grasp but having an NHS system free to use to anyone who comes to the UK from the EU means the EU is used by Millions more people than just those resident in the UK. Your argument is like saying a Mcdonalds on mars will have as many customers as a Mcdonalds in the centre of London. Patently stupid. There are more people in London than on mars ergo the Maccy d's in London will have more people use it.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:51 pm

jimbob wrote:Oh ffs I don't confuse either. I have REPEATEDLY said I have no issue with immigration. I have an issue with Illegal Immigration and Asylum seekers and the fact we have an open border policy.


You seem very confused on this issue....

jimbob wrote: to try claim immigration is not taking a toll on the NHS is just stupid. It takes a toll on all sectors and I see its effect in the areas of the public sector in which I am involved.


So which immigration are you talking about in the above comment?

jimbob wrote:What you all seem to fail to grasp is there are a lot more illegal immigrants and asylum seekers than are reported because I am willing to bet for example that the government departments classify those who have applied as not having Asylum status so it wont show in the official figures for those granted Asylum. They will then massage the classification for Asylum seekers as those who have applied so that for example those who are in removal centres awaiting appeal will not be put in the category as asylum seekers so they get lost in the system.


I think he does grasp the issue but perhaps takes exception to the fact that you seem to have access to numbers that even the government doesn't, and have accused them of conspiracy to conceal data.

jimbob wrote:You then have all those who are here who are not even on the government or any other recorded system working and living illegally.


Yes, there must be literally billions.

jimbob wrote:Has no one here noticed how walls/barriers are going up all across the schengen free movement zone?? The only reason we have got away so easily so far is because we have a moderately controlled border however across Europe our european partners have let in millions of asylum seekers in many cases granting asylum and in the end freedom to move freely across the EU which includes the UK but often without any checks on who they are and whether they have anything in terms of skills we need or criminal backgrounds.


I'm glad you mentioned the migrants from Syria and Iraq and the Schengen area. Of course you know that we aren't a part of that agreement so border controls exist here and of course you know that as a consequence these people do not have the freedom to cross into the UK, hence why there is the jungle in Calais? You might also want to reflect why those people have fled to Europe, particularly the Iraqis. Couldn't have been anything to do with our misadventure in Iraq, where we followed our American overlords into an illegal, pointless and disastrous war, could it? Do you think if we left the EU we'd be more or less susceptible to being co-opted by America into further fruitless campaigns?
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:55 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:
Hooli wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Hooli wrote:
jimbob wrote:As an example.People run around claiming the NHS is in crisis etc etc. They are right but that's because of two things. First and most importantly is chronic mismanagement and underfunding by the government but the underfunding is led by the second factor which is service need. Without having an average or fixed base to work from on how many people the NHS needs to cater to the NHS cannot function properly no matter how much money is thrown at it.


I think your over estimating the NHS planners & managers if you think they even understand the concept of planning according to service need. As to underfunding, the amount of waste I see daily proves this isn't the case. The NHS is the best way ever developed to turn money into pointless jobs that achieve nothing & prevent a lot of good things happening. Be shit at your job in the NHS long enough & you will become a shit manager as a reward. This is mostly pointed at non-medical staff as I interact with them a lot more than the medical side.



Ok this much I can sort of agree with. I am well aware of the utter financial mismanagement within the civil service so it is possible the NHS budget is sufficient in principle but is wasted on pointless crap. It does not detract from the fact that immigration plays its part in draining national resources be that NHS Education etc.


Oh agree with a that too. The majority of immigration seen around my area is the worthless, never get a job & slob around type. We already have plenty of home grown scum, so why import more?

What always raises a wry smile from me is how the hospital managers always need to go on recruitment holidays to hot places mid winter.... Which I have seen done are refusing better trained applicants from this country as the jobs were earmarked for overseas recruitment. I hope that practice has changed as it was a few years ago.


Yes, I'm sure* - where did you see this then?







* Not sure.


Worthing hospital around 2000, hence my hope it's changed. Student nurses who'd trained at the hospital weren't allowed to apply for the jobs they'd been doing as the jobs were earmarked for staff who once bought over had to be trained for a month or so before being 'let loose'.

It happened, I hope it doesn't happen now. Get over it.


Yes, I'm sure* it was exactly like that and you have all the facts as it makes absolute sense** for any hospital to behave like that.






*Not sure
** No sense



He is right you are wrong. Simple. Consider renting equipment worth £100 on a month by month basis for £100 a month as there is a maintenance package attached. It happens and it is still happening in the civil service.

Ineptitude on a grand scale.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:56 pm

jimbob wrote:
No wonder you work for the NHS. Immigration will take it toll on the NHS. I realise it may be hard for you to grasp but having an NHS system free to use to anyone who comes to the UK from the EU means the EU is used by Millions more people than just those resident in the UK. Your argument is like saying a Mcdonalds on mars will have as many customers as a Mcdonalds in the centre of London. Patently stupid. There are more people in London than on mars ergo the Maccy d's in London will have more people use it.


I think there was some sort of insult there. Will immigration take it's toll? Are these based on your figures that no one else seems to have and takes no account of the positive effect immigration has had on the NHS? Please enlighten me, but do use simple words, as I'm unable to grasp simple concepts. One simple concept you don't seem to have grasped is that EU citizens don't have free access to the NHS, their governments have to fund their treatment here in reciprocal arrangements, likewise you are able to access treatment in any EU country funded by our government.

Of course we have billions of EU citizens milling around, filling up our hospitals. I see it every day*. Bloody EU foreigners.




* don't see it at all, because it's fictitious bollocks invented by kippers.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:57 pm

jimbob wrote:

He is right you are wrong. Simple. Consider renting equipment worth £100 on a month by month basis for £100 a month as there is a maintenance package attached. It happens and it is still happening in the civil service.

Ineptitude on a grand scale.


Nope, he is right and you are wrong, as is Hooli with his 16 year old nugget of information. If we had enough student nurses to fill vacancies, we'd be snapping their arms off.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Deuteronomy @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:06 pm

jimbob wrote: Consider renting equipment worth £100 on a month by month basis for £100 a month as there is a maintenance package attached.


What the hell are you on about?

jimbob wrote: Consider renting equipment worth £100 on a month by month basis


Right

jimbob wrote:for £100 a month


So £100 a month at £100 a month, good lesson in tautology there, but okay

jimbob wrote: as there is a maintenance package attached.


Okay...

.......and?
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by jimbob @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:06 pm

Disastrous wrote:
jimbob wrote:there are a lot more illegal immigrants...because...I am willing to bet



This is the thing you guys seem to keep missing.

You all seem to KNOW that what you say is fact because "You are willing to bet"...



I know that the figures are massaged as its what the government do. As said I have worked with the government for many years so have seen how they say one thing publicly and cover up the reality. Hence when I read that they are refusing to allow access to the official details held on NI numbers issued versus Asylum claims I know they are trying to cover up the numbers.

I know for fact they don't actually know how many people are in the country illegally because how the hell could they. The whole point of being illegal is you are here illegally and how would anyone know until caught by the authorities. Contrary to the belief held on here I have nothing against Asylum seekers or immigrants.

And yet again leaving the EU is not all about immigration. As I said before I would have no issue with a free movement policy with Europe in exchange for trade agreements should we leave but with controls set by the UK and a structure in place to make sure that the people who come to the UK are contributors to the UK and those who are illegally in the country can be thrown out without a long drawn out process set by the EU court system.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:11 pm

jimbob wrote:

I know that the figures are massaged as its what the government do. As said I have worked with the government for many years so have seen how they say one thing publicly and cover up the reality. Hence when I read that they are refusing to allow access to the official details held on NI numbers issued versus Asylum claims I know they are trying to cover up the numbers.

I know for fact they don't actually know how many people are in the country illegally because how the hell could they. The whole point of being illegal is you are here illegally and how would anyone know until caught by the authorities. Contrary to the belief held on here I have nothing against Asylum seekers or immigrants.

And yet again leaving the EU is not all about immigration. As I said before I would have no issue with a free movement policy with Europe in exchange for trade agreements should we leave but with controls set by the UK and a structure in place to make sure that the people who come to the UK are contributors to the UK and those who are illegally in the country can be thrown out without a long drawn out process set by the EU court system.


You seem tremendously confused. On the one hand you have no problem with immigration, but on the other I'm stupid for suggesting that it's not the cause of strain on the NHS, and in fact is helping the NHS to continue functioning. So which is it?
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by thekungfury @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:22 pm

jimbob wrote:I have REPEATEDLY said I have no issue with immigration.

Oh splendid!

jimbob wrote:I have an issue with Illegal Immigration

Me too. Everyone does. They're illegal and have NOTHING to do with the EU. NOTHING

jimbob wrote:and Asylum seekers

What's your problem with asylum seekers? If they are genuinely seeker asylum it means that, under the 1951 convention, they are fleeing the risk of persecution or death in their home land. Why wouldn't you want to help genuine asylum seekers?

jimbob wrote:and the fact we have an open border policy

We don't. We really don't.

You have a problem with illegal immigration. We don't have an open door for illegal immigrants.

You have a problem with asylum seekers. We don't have an open door for asylum seekers either. 60% of applicants are rejected.

Either way, the EU has NOTHING to do with illegal immigrants or asylum seekers. NOTHING
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Hooli @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:23 pm

968 wrote:
jimbob wrote:

He is right you are wrong. Simple. Consider renting equipment worth £100 on a month by month basis for £100 a month as there is a maintenance package attached. It happens and it is still happening in the civil service.

Ineptitude on a grand scale.


Nope, he is right and you are wrong, as is Hooli with his 16 year old nugget of information. If we had enough student nurses to fill vacancies, we'd be snapping their arms off.


I'm not saying they'd have filled all the vacancies. I am saying that is exactly what they were told at the end of their placements prior to qualifying by the manage running the recruitment for those places.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:25 pm

Hooli wrote:
968 wrote:
jimbob wrote:

He is right you are wrong. Simple. Consider renting equipment worth £100 on a month by month basis for £100 a month as there is a maintenance package attached. It happens and it is still happening in the civil service.

Ineptitude on a grand scale.


Nope, he is right and you are wrong, as is Hooli with his 16 year old nugget of information. If we had enough student nurses to fill vacancies, we'd be snapping their arms off.


I'm not saying they'd have filled all the vacancies. I am saying that is exactly what they were told at the end of their placements prior to qualifying by the manage running the recruitment for those places.


Well, in todays NHS there is no way that student nurses would be refused a post where one was available.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Turntable @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:41 pm

jimbob wrote:[Incredibly I know what the meaning of the words but for the purposes of the forum and to avoid any more time wasted...

asylum noun (PROTECTION)
› [U] ​protection or ​safety, ​especially that given by a ​government to ​people who have been ​forced to ​leave ​their own ​countries for ​their ​safety or because of ​war:
to ​seek/​apply for ​political asylum

immigrant
noun [C] UK /ˈɪm.ɪ.ɡrənt/ US /ˈɪm.ə.ɡrənt/

B2 a ​person who has come to a different ​country in ​order to ​live there ​permanently:
a ​large immigrant ​population
Illegal immigrants are ​sent back ​across the ​border if they are ​caught. (Theoretically however often not the case)


So. What do you define all the people flooding Europe as presently coming into Europe on boats ? British citizens who got lost sightseeing???

They are illegal immigrants some of whom become Asylum seekers when they reach the UK in the back of lorries etc. A lot of them either do not claim asylum until "caught" and simply work and live here illegally.

Trusting any figures you read on numbers is beyond idiotic as no one truly knows as the government goes to great lengths to make sure the numbers are massively rigged and because half the time the government doesn't even know the people exist.

Maybe you have not noticed how the government changes the way things are reported by police for example to make the figures look better. They get criticised for robbery figures increasing for example so they change what defines a robbery from someone has had something stolen from their person to someone who has been beaten nearly to death for their nokia mobile phone and as if by magic next time the numbers for robbery come out robberies show as decreasing as nobody owns a nokia anymore anyway.


Good grief.
I honestly struggle to know where to start.
Pretty much nothing you say is correct. I'm not talking about opinions, I am talking about actual facts and meanings.
You think you have all these answers but you don't even understand the situation you are discussing.

Asylum seekers are as your definition says. You understand the basics of this. You must surely be able to extrapolate this to the conclusion that NONE OF THEM ARE EUROPEAN OR THEY WOULDNT NEED ASYLUM
Illegal immigrants are not legally here as they have no right to be. You must surely be able to extrapolate this to the conclusion that NONE OF THEM ARE EUROPEAN OR THEY WOULD BE LEGAL

Neither of the above categories of people have anything whatsoever to do with us leaving the EU. Nothing. Not one single thing. If we leave the EU then illegal immigrants will still come. In fact, and heres a mindfuck for you, even MORE illegal immigrants will come if we leave the EU. Does that make your head explode?

Discussing your voting feeling and including the existence of illegasl immigrants in that discussion is exactly the same as you voting labour because you don't want any more rapists. It makes zero sense and the two things are totally unconnected. I hate American football so I am definitely voting to leave Europe. I hate stepping in dogshit so I am adamant we should leave Europe.
Goldfish seem to die more easily than they used to. I vote for Brexit. Gold - fish: A member of the carp family which are orange and often kept as household pets. See? I DO know what goldfish means.
Last edited by Turntable on Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are the positives of leaving Europe?

Post by Rod Rammage @ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:44 pm

968 wrote:Are these based on your figures that no one else seems to have and takes no account of the positive effect immigration has had on the NHS?


But Niner!

You seem to think immigration is an on/off switch. Either we have it, or we don't.

But surely we can have good immigration and stop bad immigration?

Good immigration is foreigners we don't really want, because they are foreigners, but we have no choice. And bad foreigners is ISIS and sponging gypsies.

OK imagine this.

I am in a hospital. Oh noes! A friendly filipino nurse comes along and "treats" me. Good immigration.

Now look at me. I'm at a a train station. I am a sexy woman, minding my own feminist sexybiz. But foreigners rape me, the sods. Bad immigration.

So in Rodworld we LEAVE the sexy filipino nurse to go about her sexy nursebiz, and we send those rapers back to you-know-where (Syria).
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