EU - In/Out

Do you have difficulty sustaining your election?

In or Out

In
41
73%
Out
15
27%
 
Total votes : 56

EU - In/Out

Post by Deuteronomy @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:42 pm

Sort of prompted by a comment that Teeks made on another thread, but it's got me to wonder about the age of pro/anti Eu voters.

Based on nothing but my own observations, it seems to me that it's mostly people of retirement age that want to be out of the EU. Which is a worry, because jobs are not so much of a concern to them and I suspect that not many of them realise how their pensions are linked to the performance of the economy as a whole.

Thoughts?

Now with added poll!
Last edited by Deuteronomy on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Strawman @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:48 pm

I only know of one keen Brexiter and he is in his 70's, loves Farrage and Trump, hates immigrants, reads the Daily Mail and conforms to probably every other cliché. But aren't the yes/no votes fairly close with a large swathe of don't knows as well, so they can't all be like him.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Monty @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:57 pm

Heart says out, head says in.
If I had to vote tomorrow I'd stay.
But I've got a couple of months to confuse myself with bullshit from both sides.
I need CTF to help me to decide...
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:18 pm

Frankly I am terrified of brexit.
The South East economy is a third of the UKs and from what I can see is utterly dependent on Euro immigration.
Every business, every restaurant, every pub, every building site, every hospital are staffed almost exclusively by Europeans and there is roughly zero legitimate unemployment among the indigenous population
No accurate forecasts are available for anything so the whole thing is just a guess.
All the emphasis has been placed on business lost from our Euro counterparts but there's almost no mention of this huge issue of a complete loss of workforce.
I realise that those already here can stay, but most of them do actually go home at some point.
I don't know.
Also, who the fcuk is going to wash my car?
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:23 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:Based on nothing but my own observations, it seems to me that it's mostly people of retirement age that want to be out of the EU. Which is a worry, because jobs are not so much of a concern to them and I suspect that not many of them realise how their pensions are linked to the performance of the economy as a whole.
Thoughts?


TO answer the actual question, it is also people who cannot correlate their jobs and welfare to Europe. Someone who works for Sainsbury will not see his job at risk if we exit Europe. in fact he is likely to be of the belief that his job will be more secure and will become better paid. I can see the logic and even though the logic is flawed, there will be some low-paid workers who will end up better off regardless of how the rest of the economy does.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:34 pm

Turntable wrote:Also, who the fcuk is going to wash my car?


TS, obv.

You will be a powerfully built director. He will work for the public sector. He will need a second job.

Image
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:40 pm

I think Brexit is a last kick in the teeth from the baby-boomers. Born into free health care, educated free up to degree level, 100% employment, inflation-busting pay rises, final-salary pensions and unprecedented house price increases to the point where the 3 bed semi they bought in 1988 for £30k is now work over a million. Having had it all on a plate they now plan to screw over the generations following behind them, secure in the knowledge they'll be dead before it really bites.

You might have guessed I'll be voting 'remain'.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by FurDonga @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:52 pm

I'm voting to stay in. Partly because I think its the correct choice and secondly most of the brexit arguments seem to be emotive or wishful economics on us retaking our place at the head of some mythical economic empire where all there wishes will come true without those bloody foreigners interfering. Forex on a match fishing forum i read they are convinced they will able to slaughter cormorants, herons and otters once out !

Also many brexits i know are mental racists convinced the white, middle aged and middle class English* male is a hugely persecuted minority !
*And they DO mean just the English; the Scots, Irish and Welsh are not quite British enough apparently
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:59 pm

I'm voting to stay in too, for the same reasons as people have already mentioned.

FurDonga wrote:emotive or wishful economics on us retaking our place at the head of some mythical economic empire where all there wishes will come true without those bloody foreigners interfering


This is particularly resonant. I think there's a huge misconception among probably the majority of the Outies as to the EU's role and a lot of lack of understanding of the actual reality of being out.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by spast1kunt @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:01 pm

My stepdad's in his sixties and he wants out of the EU. Then again he reads the Daily Mail so what can you expect?
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:09 pm

My parents (baby boomers) were over at the weekend and they want out. When quizzed on why it's the usual reasons; fed up with EU making our laws and deciding our taxes, uncontrolled immigration etc. I asked which laws and which taxes and unsurprisingly they couldn't name one. They brought up "that bloody Muslim hook preacher" and the fact that the EU stopped us deporting him. I tried to say it was the ECHR which was nothing to do with the EU but it doesn't matter.

In the end they both admitted they don't really care about the political or economic reasons, they just don't like Europeans and hate the fact we're giving them any money. tbh I prefer than answer than the one dressed up by the Mail (shamefully they get the Mail on Sunday) to pretend it's not little-Englander xenophobia.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:09 pm

.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:09 pm

.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:13 pm

Turntable wrote:.


That's a very forthright view.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:15 pm

spast1kunt wrote:My stepdad's in his sixties and he wants out of the EU. Then again he reads the Daily Mail so what can you expect?


I hate that paper with a passion. I know 3 elderly people who are graduates and read it and recite opinions from it.
When I challenge them on their reading of it their argument is "I want a tabloid and I wont read a red-top. I am intelligent enough to discard the crap". Its fine logic until you hear their opinions being twisted by it.
My m-I-l was lamenting private companies supplying the healthcare industry. In theory it was a valid topic of conversation until she said "All these bloody company owners buying helicopters at our expense". Of course that happens. Companies get awarded contracts and there is no competition hence they include a helicopter in the costing. For real.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:23 pm

Turntable wrote:
spast1kunt wrote:My stepdad's in his sixties and he wants out of the EU. Then again he reads the Daily Mail so what can you expect?


I hate that paper with a passion. I know 3 elderly people who are graduates and read it and recite opinions from it.
When I challenge them on their reading of it their argument is "I want a tabloid and I wont read a red-top. I am intelligent enough to discard the crap". Its fine logic until you hear their opinions being twisted by it.
My m-I-l was lamenting private companies supplying the healthcare industry. In theory it was a valid topic of conversation until she said "All these bloody company owners buying helicopters at our expense". Of course that happens. Companies get awarded contracts and there is no competition hence they include a helicopter in the costing. For real.


I get the same from my MIL, TT, and it drives me nuts. I'm not sure I've laid eyes on her in the last year without having to have yet another conversation about Muslims and halal, FFS, and it all comes from the Mail. I genuinely do not get how people cannot see how fcuked up the views it peddles are. One of my friends husband is a keen Wail reader and he comes out with the same anti-EU tripe. I wouldn't mind if they were anti and had a coherent opinion on it, but they are all fcuking obsessed with immigration and the 'PC brigade' or some bollocks.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Deuteronomy @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:24 pm

thekungfury wrote:My parents (baby boomers) were over at the weekend and they want out. When quizzed on why it's the usual reasons; fed up with EU making our laws and deciding our taxes, uncontrolled immigration etc. I asked which laws and which taxes and unsurprisingly they couldn't name one. They brought up "that bloody Muslim hook preacher" and the fact that the EU stopped us deporting him. I tried to say it was the ECHR which was nothing to do with the EU but it doesn't matter.

In the end they both admitted they don't really care about the political or economic reasons, they just don't like Europeans and hate the fact we're giving them any money. tbh I prefer than answer than the one dressed up by the Mail (shamefully they get the Mail on Sunday) to pretend it's not little-Englander xenophobia.


Your parents could be my in-laws, it's the same tired clap-trap they reel out.

I'm almost at a point where I feel that anyone in retirement shouldn't be allowed to vote on this as they've not got enough skin in the game.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Strawman @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:29 pm

You could have a proportional voting system, so someone 20yrs old has approx 60 years to live with the consequences and someone 70 has roughly 10 therefore the 20 yr olds votes counts 6X as much, and so on.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:29 pm

Turntable wrote:
spast1kunt wrote:My stepdad's in his sixties and he wants out of the EU. Then again he reads the Daily Mail so what can you expect?


I hate that paper with a passion. I know 3 elderly people who are graduates and read it and recite opinions from it.
When I challenge them on their reading of it their argument is "I want a tabloid and I wont read a red-top. I am intelligent enough to discard the crap". Its fine logic until you hear their opinions being twisted by it.
My m-I-l was lamenting private companies supplying the healthcare industry. In theory it was a valid topic of conversation until she said "All these bloody company owners buying helicopters at our expense". Of course that happens. Companies get awarded contracts and there is no competition hence they include a helicopter in the costing. For real.

It's when you get those arguments you know there is no point continuing. My folks said "...and did you read about that Muslim family that got moved from their £1.2m house to a £2m house? Eight kids he's got!"

Of course I didn't read about it. It was only the DM that reported it. I'm instantly sceptical at the figures and with no context it's a pointless story. Assuming it's a minimum 5 bed house and in central London how many houses, including council houses, are worth less than £1m? Furthermore what's the alternative? Turfing a family of 10 out onto the streets?

Fcuk I hate that paper.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:31 pm

I think democracy is really over rated.
The principle that everyone gets a vote is one I agree with.
The principle that people are allowed to vote without having the vaguest idea about what they are voting for is quite bizarre if you think about it. Or if you don't think about it I suppose.
Anyway, there should be a test you take in order to vote on things like this. If you cant be bothered to learn the facts about in issue you shouldn't be allowed a vote on it, in my superior opinion.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Deuteronomy @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:31 pm

I'm getting unreasonably angry about this whole thing, more so than normal.

I'm even angry on behalf of my children that their otherwise wonderful grandparents are going to vote to shaft their future.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:36 pm

Turntable wrote:I think democracy is really over rated

Funny you should mention that. I only heard about this very recently. Basically Belgium went without an elected government for 589 days. Nobody waited to be told what to do, they just got on with it.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-mi ... 047267.php

Plus, on the one man one vote thing, whenever I go to a public place that poors can afford (forex Legoland) I get depressed looking round at the number of votes there which cancel out mine and all of my friends' votes. Then I remember they probably don't actually vote.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:36 pm

thekungfury wrote:[ Furthermore what's the alternative? .


That's the thing about people with this mindset. Outrage with neither understanding nor solution.
I long list of what should be with utter disregard to the fact that it is not achievable or of the consequences of trying
"The rich should pay 90% tax"
"We should shut our borders"
"Bankers bonuses should be capped, particularly of Lloyds bank even if it is new people bought in to resurrect it"
There are millions of them. If none of the actual facts and consequences need to be considered, why do they not wish for better things like "the government should give us all a million pounds"?
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by spast1kunt @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:40 pm

thekungfury wrote:
Turntable wrote:I think democracy is really over rated

Funny you should mention that. I only heard about this very recently. Basically Belgium went without an elected government for 589 days. Nobody waited to be told what to do, they just got on with it.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-mi ... 047267.php

It's like when the traffic lights stop working at a major junction and suddenly everyone discovers that they never really needed them. Then the police turn up to "help" and create a mile-long tailback.

Have we just become anarchists?
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Turntable @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:47 pm

thekungfury wrote:Plus, on the one man one vote thing, whenever I go to a public place that poors can afford (forex Legoland) I get depressed looking round at the number of votes there which cancel out mine and all of my friends' votes. Then I remember they probably don't actually vote.


I completely get that too. But I don't share your confidence.
Take brexit - legolanders believe that we will be relieved of the nasty foreigners who clog up our NHS and drive our wages down and defraud our benefits and will be compelled to vote.Conversely many humans will think "meh, I don't care that much".
Hope you're right and I am wrong.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:53 pm

Turntable wrote:
thekungfury wrote:Plus, on the one man one vote thing, whenever I go to a public place that poors can afford (forex Legoland) I get depressed looking round at the number of votes there which cancel out mine and all of my friends' votes. Then I remember they probably don't actually vote.


I completely get that too. But I don't share your confidence.
Take brexit - legolanders believe that we will be relieved of the nasty foreigners who clog up our NHS and drive our wages down and defraud our benefits and will be compelled to vote.Conversely many humans will think "meh, I don't care that much".
Hope you're right and I am wrong.


It's not dissimilar in a way to all the cretins who voted for the BNP thinking suddenly all the council houses would become empty as a result.
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:53 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:I'm getting unreasonably angry about this whole thing, more so than normal.

I'm even angry on behalf of my children that their otherwise wonderful grandparents are going to vote to shaft their future.

Whilst I agree with the anger I don't think we'll be shafted if we leave. Whether we stay or leave things will be marginally better/worse overall. Personally a Brexit would cost my business money but not that much in the grand scheme. Plus my competition will mostly be in the same boat.

We'll still have foreigns running our hospitals and washing our cars. We'll still need immigration and the market will decide how many we need (just like it already does). I don't think the extra paperwork will put that many people off coming here.

I did used to get angry about it but as the in/out campaign has gone on I'm far more sanguine. Plus I will be shocked if we leave. The bookies were the only ones that got it right last May and they're seem to think it'll be around 65% in. There is a big silent majority out there and I reckon they're in voters. It seems to be the uninformed otters that are shouting the loudest.


Typo staying
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Doctor Congo @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:54 pm

Clown Ice Skater #4 wrote:
Turntable wrote:
spast1kunt wrote:My stepdad's in his sixties and he wants out of the EU. Then again he reads the Daily Mail so what can you expect?


I hate that paper with a passion. I know 3 elderly people who are graduates and read it and recite opinions from it.
When I challenge them on their reading of it their argument is "I want a tabloid and I wont read a red-top. I am intelligent enough to discard the crap". Its fine logic until you hear their opinions being twisted by it.
My m-I-l was lamenting private companies supplying the healthcare industry. In theory it was a valid topic of conversation until she said "All these bloody company owners buying helicopters at our expense". Of course that happens. Companies get awarded contracts and there is no competition hence they include a helicopter in the costing. For real.


I get the same from my MIL, TT, and it drives me nuts. I'm not sure I've laid eyes on her in the last year without having to have yet another conversation about Muslims and halal, FFS, and it all comes from the Mail. I genuinely do not get how people cannot see how fcuked up the views it peddles are. One of my friends husband is a keen Wail reader and he comes out with the same anti-EU tripe. I wouldn't mind if they were anti and had a coherent opinion on it, but they are all fcuking obsessed with immigration and the 'PC brigade' or some bollocks.


Do you think if I met them they'd vomit in me in a little Britain-esque way?
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:55 pm

thekungfury wrote:uninformed otters


Laugh!
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Re: EU - In/Out

Post by Doctor Congo @ Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:56 pm

Oh and I'm an IN for the reasons stated above, ie Brexiteers seem to base their conclusion on a huge pie in the sky.
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