Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Do you have difficulty sustaining your election?

Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Joesnow @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:43 pm

Turntable wrote:I was thinking about this last night, right. Bear with me.

Say I was the PM (and if that does happen this post will read "this post intentionally left blank") and I was caught in this exact storm in a teacup.
If I held a press conference and said "You press are a bunch of morons. I have made a completely normal investment, the same as millions of other people, and you are making it into something it is not. fcuk off and find a proper story you idiots." would the public love or hate me?


I would probably vote for you.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:05 pm

I heard some tw@t on the radio this morning being asked why he thought DC, GO and BJ should pay more tax than they needed to and he basically said that they should because of the cuts the Tories have made. Honestly, it was nuts.

I am probably a bit more left of centre than right, but the faux outrage and triumphant finger-wagging from the Left over this makes me want to hate them.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

It seems to me like anger based purely on jealousy of wealth and hatred of DC's class. The soundbites are all that matters to them. Cameron is a rich cnut who took his money off-shore to avoid paying tax. I particularly enjoy them using the term "off-shore" as if they have the slightest inkling of what it actually means.

On the subject of tax avoidance schemes (aka aggressive tax avoidance) where people find loopholes I'm torn. Forex remember Chris Moyles' scheme? He claimed to be a 2nd hand car dealer and his accounts show he sold £3k worth of motors. The problem is he lost £1m on those sales which is most unfortunate. Oh? You can write that loss off against my income tax? Oh go on then...

On the one hand that's fcuking cheeky. It's just not cricket. Nor was Jimmy Carr's scheme or Gary Barlow's scheme etc. etc. For me it's in the same bracket as queue jumping, not standing your round or fingering your mate's recent ex.

On the other hand if I had an accountant offering me the chance to legally reduce my tax by 90% I can't see that I'd say no.

Final point on the £200k IHT avoiding gifts. If we put aside the hateful robbing shit that is IHT for a moment (and it truly is morally repugnant) why does that "gift but don't die within 7yrs" thing even exist? I don't understand who/what it's intended to benefit? Other than to create a tax avoiding loophole.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Il Duce @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:28 pm

Greg66 wrote:1. Fight HMRC and win.



And there lies the problem for the average man. Even if they're in the right HMRC will drag it out for so long it won't be worth it.

I saw a programme on Crickhowell- the town that was threatening to go off-shore and not pay any tax, purely to make HMRC try and close that loophole. They met with an HMRC advisor and he agreed that they could probably get away with it- they left the meeting overjoyed and felt that they'd as good as won.
Reading between the lines, and looking at his horrible smug face, the HMRC man would have made them run around like fvcking idiots and had them in so many tribunals that he would have bled them dry before HMRC had finally given in.
HMRC don't care about costs or time as they have no budget or time scale to meet - they just give the task to 10 or 20 experts to get on with. When the HMRC are up against the big boys they know that they've as good as lost and just try to "come to some agreement" where they get a bit of tax and look good and the big boys save a bit of tax and feel good.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Strawman @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:33 pm

thekungfury wrote:Final point on the £200k IHT avoiding gifts. If we put aside the hateful robbing shit that is IHT for a moment (and it truly is morally repugnant) why does that "gift but don't die within 7yrs" thing even exist? I don't understand who/what it's intended to benefit? Other than to create a tax avoiding loophole.


To stop someone on their death bed giving all their money away in order that the beneficiaries didn't have to pay IHT that would be liable if left to the reading of the will, the logical extension of that is someone who knew they had a short time to live couldn't do it a few months in advance etc. until you end up with the arbitrary figure of seven years.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Deuteronomy @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:38 pm

Strawman wrote:
thekungfury wrote:Final point on the £200k IHT avoiding gifts. If we put aside the hateful robbing shit that is IHT for a moment (and it truly is morally repugnant) why does that "gift but don't die within 7yrs" thing even exist? I don't understand who/what it's intended to benefit? Other than to create a tax avoiding loophole.


To stop someone on their death bed giving all their money away in order that the beneficiaries didn't have to pay IHT that would be liable if left to the reading of the will, the logical extension of that is someone who knew they had a short time to live couldn't do it a few months in advance etc. until you end up with the arbitrary figure of seven years.


If there's one tax that truly promotes deep feelings of outrage and anger it's IHT.

You earn, pay tax and then HMRC has their hand in your shroud to make you pay tax on it again before you give it to your children.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Dirk @ Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:05 pm

IHT is mo re responsible for the end of the upper classes and thus the class system.

It does create more of a level playing field for financial and social mobility. A mobility I have if course benefited from.

And of course I pay for my children to go to private school and will try to avoid (legally) IHT to give my children an unfair advantage
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:11 am

Damien Thorn wrote:
jimbob wrote:To me fair is we all pay the same percentage of tax.

We all do, don't we? Or do you mean one single flat rate for all taxation?



Well in principle yes. We all pay basic rate tax however as we earn more the higher percentage we pay in tax. I can understand and even within reason accept it but it is not actually fair. Why if a person who earns beyond a certain point should they have to pay 30-50% in tax on all earnings above a certain point.

In simple terms a flat tax is fair as everyone pays the same percentage on income. The more you earn the more tax you pay. Simple.

As said though that would require removing anything that can be used as tax deduction loopholes which in turn would mean having a max three or four lines of tax code.

For example and rather simplistic. Earnings up to 20k tax free. Anything over 20k taxable at 25%. Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.
No more tax rebate.
No more child tax credits etc. What you earn after tax is what you have to live on.No loopholes.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:03 am

jimbob wrote:
Damien Thorn wrote:
jimbob wrote:To me fair is we all pay the same percentage of tax.

We all do, don't we? Or do you mean one single flat rate for all taxation?



Well in principle yes. We all pay basic rate tax however as we earn more the higher percentage we pay in tax. I can understand and even within reason accept it but it is not actually fair. Why if a person who earns beyond a certain point should they have to pay 30-50% in tax on all earnings above a certain point.

In simple terms a flat tax is fair as everyone pays the same percentage on income. The more you earn the more tax you pay. Simple.

As said though that would require removing anything that can be used as tax deduction loopholes which in turn would mean having a max three or four lines of tax code.

For example and rather simplistic. Earnings up to 20k tax free. Anything over 20k taxable at 25%. Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.
No more tax rebate.
No more child tax credits etc. What you earn after tax is what you have to live on.No loopholes.

I like the idea, but that's a whole lotta jobs you've just culled from HMRC - think of the backlash.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Deuteronomy @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:56 am

Careless Whisperer wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Damien Thorn wrote:
jimbob wrote:To me fair is we all pay the same percentage of tax.

We all do, don't we? Or do you mean one single flat rate for all taxation?



Well in principle yes. We all pay basic rate tax however as we earn more the higher percentage we pay in tax. I can understand and even within reason accept it but it is not actually fair. Why if a person who earns beyond a certain point should they have to pay 30-50% in tax on all earnings above a certain point.

In simple terms a flat tax is fair as everyone pays the same percentage on income. The more you earn the more tax you pay. Simple.

As said though that would require removing anything that can be used as tax deduction loopholes which in turn would mean having a max three or four lines of tax code.

For example and rather simplistic. Earnings up to 20k tax free. Anything over 20k taxable at 25%. Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.
No more tax rebate.
No more child tax credits etc. What you earn after tax is what you have to live on.No loopholes.

I like the idea, but that's a whole lotta jobs you've just culled from HMRC - think of the backlash.


The simplicity has a certain attraction, but in practice I'd assume that revenue/treasury would get a lot less income?

I absolutely agree about the 'fairness' bit - paying a higher percentage because you earn more is not 'fair', morally right (possibly) but not 'fair' in the way the socialists bang on about.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Käsemeister @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:10 am

Quite the opposite in fact - they claim it's "unfair" and higher rate taxpayers should pay more. Which is rather a circular argument.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:24 am

jimbob wrote:Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.

What?
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Käsemeister @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:19 am

:rotfl:
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Turntable @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:57 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:
jimbob wrote:
Damien Thorn wrote:
jimbob wrote:To me fair is we all pay the same percentage of tax.

We all do, don't we? Or do you mean one single flat rate for all taxation?



Well in principle yes. We all pay basic rate tax however as we earn more the higher percentage we pay in tax. I can understand and even within reason accept it but it is not actually fair. Why if a person who earns beyond a certain point should they have to pay 30-50% in tax on all earnings above a certain point.

In simple terms a flat tax is fair as everyone pays the same percentage on income. The more you earn the more tax you pay. Simple.

As said though that would require removing anything that can be used as tax deduction loopholes which in turn would mean having a max three or four lines of tax code.

For example and rather simplistic. Earnings up to 20k tax free. Anything over 20k taxable at 25%. Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.
No more tax rebate.
No more child tax credits etc. What you earn after tax is what you have to live on.No loopholes.

I like the idea, but that's a whole lotta jobs you've just culled from HMRC - think of the backlash.


The simplicity has a certain attraction, but in practice I'd assume that revenue/treasury would get a lot less income?
.


Certainly. Currently the top 50% of earners pay 90% of the tax.
Complete fag-packet maths but if you needed to take up Jimbobs idea then it would more likely be 0-20k = zero tax and 20k+ is 40%

Also, I read a fascinating article the other day which talked about taxation as a %age of income but included purchase tax (i.e. VAT and booze duty) as well as direct tax and it was a huge eye opener and made me think that we had nowhere near the progressive tax system we all assume we have.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Deuteronomy @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:59 pm

Is there something that in broad terms show where the money is spent?

I'm certain I could shave a few quid off here and there.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Strawman @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:03 pm

Like this ?

Image

ETA- social protection includes pensions and social welfare.

I like other £72bn, there is an obvious saving right there.
Last edited by Strawman on Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:05 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:Is there something that in broad terms show where the money is spent?

I'm certain I could shave a few quid off here and there.

This went out to loads of households last year. I think this is an example one for someone earning £20k (£30k? Dunno)

Image
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Turntable @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:07 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:Is there something that in broad terms show where the money is spent?

I'm certain I could shave a few quid off here and there.


ALL government spending is so unbelievably wasteful that I spend most of my life in a fury about it.
For reasons that I will never fully accept, everything costs the government about double to achieve as opposed to a person or company going out and getting stuff done.
Our tax equates to waste on such a monumental scale that I find it depressing.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:21 pm

Joesnow wrote:
Turntable wrote:I was thinking about this last night, right. Bear with me.

Say I was the PM (and if that does happen this post will read "this post intentionally left blank") and I was caught in this exact storm in a teacup.
If I held a press conference and said "You press are a bunch of morons. I have made a completely normal investment, the same as millions of other people, and you are making it into something it is not. fcuk off and find a proper story you idiots." would the public love or hate me?


I would probably vote for you.

I would too. A bit of no-nonsense talking goes a long way.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:30 pm

thekungfury wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:Is there something that in broad terms show where the money is spent?

I'm certain I could shave a few quid off here and there.

This went out to loads of households last year. I think this is an example one for someone earning £20k (£30k? Dunno)

Image

Looking at that, it seems broadly to be a fair distribution. I have one or two minor gripes though:
* I'm uneasy about paying more for welfare than for health, although I appreciate paying less welfare would probably cost more for health overall.
* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?
* It would be nice to see national debt interest down around transport levels, but that rather depends on paying most of the fcuker off first.

Other than than I'm cool with it.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Disastrous @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:31 pm

Turntable wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:Is there something that in broad terms show where the money is spent?

I'm certain I could shave a few quid off here and there.


ALL government spending is so unbelievably wasteful that I spend most of my life in a fury about it.
For reasons that I will never fully accept, everything costs the government about double to achieve as opposed to a person or company going out and getting stuff done.
Our tax equates to waste on such a monumental scale that I find it depressing.



This drives me mental too.

What do we think the reasons behind it are?

I was musing that it was 'company card' mentality within the departments that are procuring the goods and services. As in, when Germany travels for work, she eats at extortionate restaurants, takes cabs everywhere etc etc. When I travel for my (own) work, I'm much more canny about spending as ultimately, the company money is my money.

Is this the case with the Government? For example, Dept A commissions a video from me. I laugh and charge them through the nose and they don't know any better/don't care either way so pay it without questioning it?
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Deuteronomy @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:33 pm

I'm livid that so much is spent on welfare, nearly a quarter.

Any breakdown on that (welfare) so we can see in a bit more granularity?
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:07 pm

Dirk wrote:And of course I pay for my children to go to private school


Of course.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Doctor Congo @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:59 pm

Turntable wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:Is there something that in broad terms show where the money is spent?

I'm certain I could shave a few quid off here and there.


ALL government spending is so unbelievably wasteful that I spend most of my life in a fury about it.
For reasons that I will never fully accept, everything costs the government about double to achieve as opposed to a person or company going out and getting stuff done.
Our tax equates to waste on such a monumental scale that I find it depressing.


This is true. I think perhaps one reason it's so costly is because the government ministers etc have no real experience in the areas that they deal in, and hence negotiate piss poor deals. It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example (though actually I think the minister of health should be dissolved as a position and the NHS de-politicised so it can actually forward plan beyond 5 years and make unpopular decisions that are necessary).
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:04 pm

968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example...

NHS management is littered with ex medical people. When they're doing what they're trained for these are brilliant people, but then they get promoted behind a desk seemingly for sticking around long enough and have absolutely no management skills whatsoever. I'm convinced many of the NHS 's operational problems are due to having ineffective managers in many, many positions.

PS: This is as observed direct from experience.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:11 pm

Careless Whisperer wrote:* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?

I'm wondering if it would make any difference. We already have a huge demand for cheap unskilled labour and it needs to be imported because our thickos are too lazy to do the jobs. If they were better educated and qualified they'd have even less incentive to pick fruit, sweep hospital wards etc.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:17 pm

thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?

I'm wondering if it would make any difference. We already have a huge demand for cheap unskilled labour and it needs to be imported because our thickos are too lazy to do the jobs. If they were better educated and qualified they'd have even less incentive to pick fruit, sweep hospital wards etc.

You're assuming that education has to be academic. We have very little emphasis on practical skills in our education system and this is what employers are apparently crying out for.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:19 pm

968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example

I don't agree.

Michael Jordan's record as a player was 664 wins, 285 losses. After retiring he went into team management and his record was 185 wins to 291 losses. Basically just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you can manage it.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:22 pm

Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?

I'm wondering if it would make any difference. We already have a huge demand for cheap unskilled labour and it needs to be imported because our thickos are too lazy to do the jobs. If they were better educated and qualified they'd have even less incentive to pick fruit, sweep hospital wards etc.

You're assuming that education has to be academic. We have very little emphasis on practical skills in our education system and this is what employers are apparently crying out for.

I agree people should be better educated so that they can go and have a trade which pulls them out of pure welfare or in-work benefits. However this doesn't address our vast need for unskilled labour. Making our own unskilled people do the jobs that are already there would be better than trying to educate them imho.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:24 pm

thekungfury wrote:
968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example

I don't agree.

Michael Jordan's record as a player was 664 wins, 285 losses. After retiring he went into team management and his record was 185 wins to 291 losses. Basically just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you can manage it.

I was reading a 2010 interview of Ray Mallock in an online Motorsport article the other day. It struck me how he spoke about getting great satisfaction from managing people and teams, seeing their confidence grow and their skills develop. It's the sort of comment I have never heard within the NHS where staff seem to be considered (and referred to) as a resource. A resource is something you use, it's not something you develop, nurture and respect.
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