Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Do you have difficulty sustaining your election?

Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Doctor Congo @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:25 pm

thekungfury wrote:
968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example

I don't agree.

Michael Jordan's record as a player was 664 wins, 285 losses. After retiring he went into team management and his record was 185 wins to 291 losses. Basically just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you can manage it.


Well I disagree with your face! And how dare you quote American sports at me!

Anyhow, anybody would be a better SoS for Health than this berkhead, and in fact any of the SoS over the last 20 years, who've been shitter each time. Part of their problem is that they are tied to party politics, but part of it is their genuine cluelessness about how things work. Take this recent NHS dispute for example, promulgated by a homeopath SoS.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Doctor Congo @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:27 pm

Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example

I don't agree.

Michael Jordan's record as a player was 664 wins, 285 losses. After retiring he went into team management and his record was 185 wins to 291 losses. Basically just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you can manage it.

I was reading a 2010 interview of Ray Mallock in an online Motorsport article the other day. It struck me how he spoke about getting great satisfaction from managing people and teams, seeing their confidence grow and their skills develop. It's the sort of comment I have never heard within the NHS where staff seem to be considered (and referred to) as a resource. A resource is something you use, it's not something you develop, nurture and respect.


That happens because of the short-termism of all NHS policy, ie the next election and the next financial year. It also happens because the direction from above is to treat staff like units of activity and productivity rather than valued members of the team.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Rod Rammage @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:46 pm

Haven't read most of the previous posts, but isn't part of the implication that he's bent?

Like Zuma and Putin.

If I was Cameron I would be bent as fcuk. I'm pretty bent and anyway, I am not David Cameron. If I was him I would be wellbent.

Look at Tony Blair.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Rod Rammage @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:50 pm

Also I'd be forever snorting hookers and shagging coke on expenses.

"Oh that Prime Minister Rammage," people would say and shake their heads, but I'd be too off my tits and rich to care.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Disastrous @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:52 pm

Rod Rammage wrote:there heads.



Jesus Christ!
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Rod Rammage @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:55 pm

What a fit up.

I didn't even type that wtf?

I expect it's the mods, up to their old tricks!
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Disastrous @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:01 pm

Rod Rammage wrote:What a fit up.

I didn't even type that wtf?

I expect it's the mods, up to their old tricks!



The Press and media that charted your rise to power has turned on you it seems. Sad but inevitable I expect.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:08 pm

968 wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example

I don't agree.

Michael Jordan's record as a player was 664 wins, 285 losses. After retiring he went into team management and his record was 185 wins to 291 losses. Basically just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you can manage it.

I was reading a 2010 interview of Ray Mallock in an online Motorsport article the other day. It struck me how he spoke about getting great satisfaction from managing people and teams, seeing their confidence grow and their skills develop. It's the sort of comment I have never heard within the NHS where staff seem to be considered (and referred to) as a resource. A resource is something you use, it's not something you develop, nurture and respect.


That happens because of the short-termism of all NHS policy, ie the next election and the next financial year. It also happens because the direction from above is to treat staff like units of activity and productivity rather than valued members of the team.


Yes, but the same attitude is prevalent at trust level management to their own staff. Them and us doesn't in my experience mean Politicians v NHS, it means any management over any staff.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Turntable @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:27 pm

thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?

I'm wondering if it would make any difference. We already have a huge demand for cheap unskilled labour and it needs to be imported because our thickos are too lazy to do the jobs. If they were better educated and qualified they'd have even less incentive to pick fruit, sweep hospital wards etc.

You're assuming that education has to be academic. We have very little emphasis on practical skills in our education system and this is what employers are apparently crying out for.

I agree people should be better educated so that they can go and have a trade which pulls them out of pure welfare or in-work benefits. However this doesn't address our vast need for unskilled labour. Making our own unskilled people do the jobs that are already there would be better than trying to educate them imho.


I spend my life mentally trying to unravel this dilemma in my head and I have drawn precisely zero conclusions.
On one hand I could argue blind on a given day that our current unemployed are unemployable thus it is pointless wasting any effort or resources as you just end up with an unemployable skilled person.
But then I thought that if every school leaver without a job was made to learn a trade, or similar,at the time then perhaps they wouldn't be unemployable. Perhaps it is the habit of doing fcuk-all and being allowed to do fcuk-all that has made them unemployable.

Someone at work asked me the other day: "Why don't employers employ British people for unskilled work?". I asked them to think of any British person they knew that earned £15k per year (unskilled salary) and what is that person like? and the truth is that the person is almost always a complete waste of time. For a long time our Econonomy has been strong enough that any British person who is willing to work 40 hours a week, has at least basic intelligence and is prepared to work further than 500 metres from his house will easily earn more than an unskilled person.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:25 pm

thekungfury wrote:
jimbob wrote:Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.

What?



I am not a psychologist however if you ask someone to do something rather than tell them to do it they are likely to be happier to do so I would think.

Bear in mind the Government introduced a top rate of 50% tax for a year. It was found that they took a fair sum less tax in the year there was a 50% rate than when the tax rate was 45%
.
Making those who earn more out to be villains who should pay more tax will simply make them feel angry and they will try find ever more creative ways to avoid paying any tax out of resentment.

If you were to create a voluntary upper tax bracket where people could pay extra tax in return for some form of benefit you could maybe incentivise people to pay more out of goodwill.

So maybe have a yearly tax donor league published where the highest 3 or 4 voluntary tax donors get a public award of some sort so you turn it almost into a pissing contest for the wealthy "Look at me I am so wealthy I could afford to voluntarily give away ££££ to the public" ?

Or possibly have a year end lottery for those who paid excess taxes where they get the opportunity to win some sort of actual prize ?

As to whether flat tax could even work? Yet again no idea however if you consider how much tax is avoided due to all the loopholes and rebates in tax law if you were to close all of them those due to pay tax would have to pay whats due. When you consider the majority of tax avoiders are going to be those who are making huge amounts of money and can afford to put a lot of time and effort into reducing their tax liabilities to a minimum the amount they are removing from the system by playing the rules and loopholes is substantial.


As an example of how I would HOPE it would work and not an accountant so not accurate numbers just made up percentage to make calculations easier etc ok...
In the present system someone earns 1 million. 1st 20k tax free. So liability is £980 000

Earnings between £20k and £40k taxed at 25%. £980000 Less £5000 leaving taxable final sum of £975000

everything over £50k Taxed at 50%. £975000 - 50% = £487 500 to be paid in tax.

Odds are they will use very creative accountants and all the loopholes to reduce their liability to at least 50% or more of the overall tax liability so will in fact pay about £245000 in tax or less.

If you close all the loopholes first 20k tax free.

Sum Liable to 25% tax = £980 000
£245 000 in tax to be paid. No less possible due to no way to reduce it.


As such theoretically it will reduce the cost and complexity to the system and tax revenue should either stay at the same rate or quite possibly increase.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Strawman @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:33 pm

Only a handful of people earn £1 million as PAYE, most at that level own businesses, or it is paid in bonuses or we'v so your proposed system is irrelevant, as for the 'wealthy pissing contest' most who have earned a significant amount want to choose where they bequeath their money, frample their chosen charity. That way they get a say on how the money is spent rather than chucked into the general pot where government gets to waste it however they want.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:37 pm

Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?

I'm wondering if it would make any difference. We already have a huge demand for cheap unskilled labour and it needs to be imported because our thickos are too lazy to do the jobs. If they were better educated and qualified they'd have even less incentive to pick fruit, sweep hospital wards etc.

You're assuming that education has to be academic. We have very little emphasis on practical skills in our education system and this is what employers are apparently crying out for.



The South African education system used to cater in this regard. If you did not complete all 12 years of school and qualify with high enough grades in final year you could not go to University you had to go to college which would therefore steer people towards careers such as plumbing, bricklaying, electricians etc and it was also good as not everyone is academic I sure as hell am not. You may dream of being a nuclear physicist but the reality is you might be more suited to plumbing etc and as such the system would push you into a career best suited to your abilities.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by spast1kunt @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:39 pm

jimbob wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
jimbob wrote:Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.

What?


I am not a psychologist however if you ask someone to do something rather than tell them to do it they are likely to be happier to do so I would think.

That's bollocks though.

Honesty boxes in church halls are one thing but expecting the likes of Rupert Murdoch to pay a penny in tax unless he has the thumbscrews put on him is another.

Like it or not the country will not run without tax being paid and it's still a fact that some of the poorest in society pay the largest amount in tax as a proportion of their income once you take VAT etc. into account.

A few years ago Warren Buffett said that he was paying a lower rate of tax than his secretary and that such a system couldn't be right. It's pretty hard to credibly argue against that in my opinion.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secretary-taxes/
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:46 pm

Strawman wrote:Only a handful of people earn £1 million as PAYE, most at that level own businesses, or it is paid in bonuses or we'v so your proposed system is irrelevant, as for the 'wealthy pissing contest' most who have earned a significant amount want to choose where they bequeath their money, frample their chosen charity. That way they get a say on how the money is spent rather than chucked into the general pot where government gets to waste it however they want.



Whether PAYE or S/E or business owners should make no difference to the tax complexity if the TAX system is massively pared. I am self employed. I get a tax rebate each year. I dont really understand why and would not be overly upset about losing the rebate providing I was expected to pay the same percentage of tax as anyone else. In terms of costs me by being self employed if there was no rebate I would simply have to adjust business practices to account for it.

So for example if I have to have a business car and I get tax relief or benefit for it now if that were removed I would simply have to factor the cost of running the car into what I charge for my services.

As to getting to choose who or what their tax is spent on speaking to an italian friend of mine he said there used to be a system in Italy where people could choose where there taxes where spent. Theoretically you could do that with a voluntary tax band.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:52 pm

spast1kunt wrote:
jimbob wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
jimbob wrote:Over 100k a year voluntary upper tax bracket.

What?


I am not a psychologist however if you ask someone to do something rather than tell them to do it they are likely to be happier to do so I would think.

That's bollocks though.

Honesty boxes in church halls are one thing but expecting the likes of Rupert Murdoch to pay a penny in tax unless he has the thumbscrews put on him is another.

Like it or not the country will not run without tax being paid and it's still a fact that some of the poorest in society pay the largest amount in tax as a proportion of their income once you take VAT etc. into account.

A few years ago Warren Buffett said that he was paying a lower rate of tax than his secretary and that such a system couldn't be right. It's pretty hard to credibly argue against that in my opinion.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secretary-taxes/



I am not disagreeing there are some phenomenally selfish and greedy people in the world but Buffett is a good example of why I think a flat tax and voluntary bracket would work. Buffett was not the only one saying that his tax liabilities are stupid I think Trump said the same as well as a whole load of other US billionaires who were calling for an overhaul of the tax system so they would pay their share.

I get the feeling the system in the US and probably the UK is set up in such a way that you are either all or nothing in how much tax you end up paying and as such Buffett had to minimise liabilities to a ridiculous point otherwise he would have to pay tax at a much higher percentage than the average earner.

A flat tax would mean there would be no way to avoid tax no matter how much you earned or how you structured your finances or business.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:57 pm

Rod Rammage wrote:Haven't read most of the previous posts, but isn't part of the implication that he's bent?

Like Zuma and Putin.

If I was Cameron I would be bent as fcuk. I'm pretty bent and anyway, I am not David Cameron. If I was him I would be wellbent.

Look at Tony Blair.



Zuma is not bent. He is honest as fcuk. I took your money so what!!. Yes I know he recently apologised and said he would maybe pay some of it back when one of his stooges tells him a number he likes and another stooge manages to find that amount in some other gov department that he can steal from but he is honest about it.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by jimbob @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:01 pm

Careless Whisperer wrote:
968 wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
968 wrote:It would be great to have a health minister who was actually a medic for example

I don't agree.

Michael Jordan's record as a player was 664 wins, 285 losses. After retiring he went into team management and his record was 185 wins to 291 losses. Basically just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you can manage it.

I was reading a 2010 interview of Ray Mallock in an online Motorsport article the other day. It struck me how he spoke about getting great satisfaction from managing people and teams, seeing their confidence grow and their skills develop. It's the sort of comment I have never heard within the NHS where staff seem to be considered (and referred to) as a resource. A resource is something you use, it's not something you develop, nurture and respect.


That happens because of the short-termism of all NHS policy, ie the next election and the next financial year. It also happens because the direction from above is to treat staff like units of activity and productivity rather than valued members of the team.


Yes, but the same attitude is prevalent at trust level management to their own staff. Them and us doesn't in my experience mean Politicians v NHS, it means any management over any staff.



Agreed. My experience of civil service management is that staff are merely numbers on a sheet and are expendable to further the managers career, wealth and personal ambition regardless of the managers ability to do their actual job.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:19 pm

Turntable wrote:Someone at work asked me the other day: "Why don't employers employ British people for unskilled work?". I asked them to think of any British person they knew that earned £15k per year (unskilled salary) and what is that person like? and the truth is that the person is almost always a complete waste of time. For a long time our Econonomy has been strong enough that any British person who is willing to work 40 hours a week, has at least basic intelligence and is prepared to work further than 500 metres from his house will easily earn more than an unskilled person.

From what I've seen there is a real work ethic problem in this country. I appreciate the irony of that statement given how much we post during work hours but please allow me to continue. Thanks.

Anyway I go to factories up and down this country and the vast majority of the workers on the shop floor doing the unskilled jobs are not from here. It used to be predominantly Asian but in the last 10yrs or so I've noticed a shift towards Eastern Europeans. I've asked some of the business owners about it over the years and they much prefer not to have to employ the locals. Typically the jobs get advertised and the job centre sends someone down who would much rather not have to work. They stroll in late, take millions of fag breaks, call in sick, work slowly and get the minimum done to get their payslip. They create a fuss in the factory, argue with the bosses and one MD was certain that most wanted to be dismissed so they could go back to daytime TV.

The foreigns come in on time, do an acceptable job and go home. As a resource they're brilliant and they put our lot to shame.

I know "welfare" covers all sorts of stuff but I'd love to find out what the 5% unemployed in this country cost us. Although I'd probably rather not know as it would make me cross.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:21 pm

jimbob wrote:I am not disagreeing there are some phenomenally selfish and greedy people in the world but Buffett is a good example of why I think a flat tax and voluntary bracket would work. Buffett was not the only one saying that his tax liabilities are stupid I think Trump said the same as well as a whole load of other US billionaires who were calling for an overhaul of the tax system so they would pay their share.

Would you like some of these magic beans I've got for sale?
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Käsemeister @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:27 pm

thekungfury wrote:
Turntable wrote:Someone at work asked me the other day: "Why don't employers employ British people for unskilled work?". I asked them to think of any British person they knew that earned £15k per year (unskilled salary) and what is that person like? and the truth is that the person is almost always a complete waste of time. For a long time our Econonomy has been strong enough that any British person who is willing to work 40 hours a week, has at least basic intelligence and is prepared to work further than 500 metres from his house will easily earn more than an unskilled person.

From what I've seen there is a real work ethic problem in this country. I appreciate the irony of that statement given how much we post during work hours but please allow me to continue. Thanks.

Anyway I go to factories up and down this country and the vast majority of the workers on the shop floor doing the unskilled jobs are not from here. It used to be predominantly Asian but in the last 10yrs or so I've noticed a shift towards Eastern Europeans. I've asked some of the business owners about it over the years and they much prefer not to have to employ the locals. Typically the jobs get advertised and the job centre sends someone down who would much rather not have to work. They stroll in late, take millions of fag breaks, call in sick, work slowly and get the minimum done to get their payslip. They create a fuss in the factory, argue with the bosses and one MD was certain that most wanted to be dismissed so they could go back to daytime TV.

The foreigns come in on time, do an acceptable job and go home. As a resource they're brilliant and they put our lot to shame.

I know "welfare" covers all sorts of stuff but I'd love to find out what the 5% unemployed in this country cost us. Although I'd probably rather not know as it would make me cross.


>my usual diatribe about farm workers being shipped in from abroad while county towns have massive unemployment<

It really beggars belief. They get housing for themselves and family, they get a decent wage, and a chance to work up the tree should they so wish. But the locals can't / shan't be arsed.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by span @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:34 pm

Käsemeister wrote:>my usual diatribe about farm workers being shipped in from abroad while county towns have massive unemployment<

It really beggars belief. They get housing for themselves and family, they get a decent wage, and a chance to work up the tree should they so wish. But the locals can't / shan't be arsed.

I've heard similar, KM, from people back in my home town - farming and fishing jobs get taken by foreign workers because the local people just prefer not to. Work on the boats in particular pays well but it's fcuking hard work and so much of it goes to Latvian men (according to my friend who is a skipper on a trawler).

Back when I lived there I remember the bulb picking jobs during the summer going to foreigners but also local uni students back for their holidays.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Käsemeister @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:03 pm

Still uni students who muck in, quite literally. Oh the irony of the educated getting their hands dirty.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:15 pm

Käsemeister wrote:Still uni students who muck in, quite literally. Oh the irony of the educated getting their hands dirty.

The best paying job I had as a student was working a late evening shift picking and packing in a warehouse. All students, recently divorced housewives and people who had two or three jobs to make end meet. Not a foreigner in site.

Dunno what that shows, but watev.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by moleamol @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:40 pm

At uni I worked in IT Support, hence the Pulsar GTI-R as my student runaround. Also hence the carrying on in IT, my degree was philosophy.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by desertweasel @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:45 pm

My experience many years ago, working picking daffodils on half term until eastern european crews came in and chucked the foreman a bung and we were out, and then they were in, cost neutral to the company, God alone knows how much the pickers were actually being paid after their "bosses" had taken their cut. That's the reality, not the locals don't want to work...
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:11 pm

desertweasel wrote:My experience many years ago, working picking daffodils on half term until eastern european crews came in and chucked the foreman a bung and we were out, and then they were in, cost neutral to the company, God alone knows how much the pickers were actually being paid after their "bosses" had taken their cut. That's the reality, not the locals don't want to work...

Cool story

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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Greg66 @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:16 pm

Turntable wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Careless Whisperer wrote:* We pay just over half the welfare amount on education. I'd rather invest more in the future than propping up the short-term issues. Theoretically, better education would reduce the welfare bill over time - would it?

I'm wondering if it would make any difference. We already have a huge demand for cheap unskilled labour and it needs to be imported because our thickos are too lazy to do the jobs. If they were better educated and qualified they'd have even less incentive to pick fruit, sweep hospital wards etc.

You're assuming that education has to be academic. We have very little emphasis on practical skills in our education system and this is what employers are apparently crying out for.

I agree people should be better educated so that they can go and have a trade which pulls them out of pure welfare or in-work benefits. However this doesn't address our vast need for unskilled labour. Making our own unskilled people do the jobs that are already there would be better than trying to educate them imho.


I spend my life mentally trying to unravel this dilemma in my head and I have drawn precisely zero conclusions.
On one hand I could argue blind on a given day that our current unemployed are unemployable thus it is pointless wasting any effort or resources as you just end up with an unemployable skilled person.
But then I thought that if every school leaver without a job was made to learn a trade, or similar,at the time then perhaps they wouldn't be unemployable. Perhaps it is the habit of doing fcuk-all and being allowed to do fcuk-all that has made them unemployable.

Someone at work asked me the other day: "Why don't employers employ British people for unskilled work?". I asked them to think of any British person they knew that earned £15k per year (unskilled salary) and what is that person like? and the truth is that the person is almost always a complete waste of time. For a long time our Econonomy has been strong enough that any British person who is willing to work 40 hours a week, has at least basic intelligence and is prepared to work further than 500 metres from his house will easily earn more than an unskilled person.


The two extremes of this spectrum are Brave New World and social mobility for all, aren't they? Take a class of 11 year olds, or 16 year olds, or 7 year olds, and identify the thickies and the clevers. Invest academic education in the clevers, let the thickies learn manual skills and do something halfway with the ones in the middle. Bingo: you have alphas, betas, gammas, deltas and epsilons.

Except in a first world country where tertiary education has become the norm we can't write people off like that. People have to have options in life. Even if it is unrealistic that they will never even come close to realising them. And as a civilised first world country that isn't like the dog eat dog USA we have a welfare safety net that makes the difference between welfare + your time being your own and work + your time being someone else's a difficult equation for some to balance.

It is a strong thing to say to someone "you are an epsilon"; but for some people to avoid saying that is to deceive them. I really don't know whether it is better invest in giving such a person a skill set they can use, or basically paying them to stay out of the way and out of trouble. Especially if the latter is cheaper: there's a social conscience to the question that goes beyond pure numbers.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Käsemeister @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:18 pm

Options in life. Yes. That means picking a option. A job.
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Greg66 @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:23 pm

"An option", I think you'll find.

Deeeeeerrrrr! Gamma, gamma! Look at the gamma! What a deeeeerrrrr! Point at him to shame him!
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Re: Right, all this DC tax return stuff...

Post by Pigeon @ Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:34 pm

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