Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

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Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Dirk @ Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:45 pm

A long but interesting article on a (black) american school football team who are kneeling for the american anthem, and the abuse they get for it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37423901
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by thekungfury @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:14 am

I've been following the whole Kaepernick affair and find it fascinating. There is so much uproar and bitter anger about someone kneeling down during the anthem but virtual apathy towards an innocent black man being shot.

This video is incredible https://youtu.be/Dr_CWr5iSLY

Man's car breaks down on the highway. Police arrive in a few cars but because he's a tall black guy they panic and instantly draw tasers. He has his hands up but they taser him and whilst he's on the floor one female officer shoots him. He lies there, nobody goes to help and he dies.

Here's another angle on the video from the helicopter https://youtu.be/rmIfTEZRBko On the radio they say "he looks like a bad dude and might be on something". WTF? The first reaction to seeing a black guy is that he's a threat?

The police officer has been arrested for manslaughter however not before some media tried to smear him. A Fox News anchor said on air "I heard he had outstanding warrants", a complete lie but it's out there and Fox viewers feel validated. It's gobsmacking that this can happen and there isn't outrage amongst all people in America. Instead the Black Lives Matter movement* say "See?!?!?" and the Trump followers say "He was obviously a criminal and the police thought he had a gun so they were right".

Terence Crutcher's killing reaches a wider audience because police released the video. The latest killing in Charlotte has a disabled black guy being killed. Police are refusing to release the video but the family have released this https://youtu.be/NI_sQDHEbRU which is filmed by his wife. Far from clear evidence but his wife is yelling that he's unarmed whereas police claim he's armed.

I really can't get my head around it all. The racial divide seems as big as ever. These knee protests are causing such fury and the angry people can't seem to connect the recent activities with why it's happening.


* the BLM are far from angels but they do have a point
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by spast1kunt @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:22 am

The people making a big fuss about this issue are the political descendents of those who condemned Tommie Smith and John Carlos for their Black Power salutes at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.

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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Strawman @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:55 am

thekungfury wrote:I've been following the whole Kaepernick affair and find it fascinating.


There was a survey recently saying he was the most hated American Athlete, gaining more votes than others who were rapists or murderers or drug cheats etc.

ETA- completely unrelated but how strong do you have to be to do this?

Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbv6Drf4as
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Barbarianna @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:07 am

Interesting article Dirk.

It seems that extreme poverty and lack of opportunity drive communities to extremism and irrational fear/hatred of minorities and suspicion of authority at what they see as a conspiracy to let 'the other' thrive. The vast dispossessed estates in England come to mind. If that community is itself a minority my impression is that it often goes deep into a voiceless denial, a collective apathy. But in the case of the black communities in the US it is good to see that they have not forgotten their history of protest; it seems they are doing so while acknowledging that they have the same suspicion and antipathy lurking among their ranks. It must be close to fantasy for some of their young folk to believe that there is any chance of making it out of a place and a way of thinking that is defined by its lack of hope in ever making good.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Dirk @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:03 pm

I dont think our sink estates are strictly comparable barbs.

There is racism in the UK of course, but in the US it is endemic and systematic far more wide reaching. As Teeks says, the vast majority have their anger directed ludicrously. It is a factor both of the underlying racism and their bizarre nationalistic attitudes
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by thekungfury @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:23 pm

Where English sink estates can be comparable regarding abject poverty and the inability to escape. Poor unemployed parents with kids unable to break the cycle. However that's not, afaict, what the anthem protest is all about. Kaepernick is taking a knee not to highlight poor neighbourhoods but to open a dialogue about black people being routinely shot by police and things being brushed under the carpet.
“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told the NFL Network that night. “To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.”

The level of anger surrounding him "disrespecting the flag" isn't something I don't think we can appreciate here. England footballers very rarely sing the anthem before games and doing things for Queen and country don't seem to have the same ring to them any more. Kneeling for the anthem over there appears to some to be akin to shitting in their grandmother's mouth.

That he's black (actually mixed race and raised in the suburbs by his adopted white parents) is perfect for those that love the flag the most; white Christian conservatives. The timing of "the knee" perfectly coincides with Trump upping the campaign rhetoric too. And then a white female cop shoots and kills a tasered black guy whose only crime was that his car had broken down. All very messy.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Barbarianna @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:25 pm

All of this doesnt endear that country as a whole, at all. Much as I wouldnt like Dubai because it is difficult to ignore the horrible way it has treated its immigrant construction workers, whose pain is only emphasised within the precision of its marble and fountains.

America no longer holds the sense of vastness and escapability that would permit a carefree journey in a camper across the country as I once facncied. The ugliness of its innards seem far too well writ across its every impressive skyline to enjoy what must be a beautiful country. In other words, it's a massive duplicitous shithole.

My worst fear is that we may not be far behind if we keep letting hatred pose as defence.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Dirk @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:30 pm

At least on our sink estates they don't get the systematic racism as much- well not since the 80s. And they get healthcare. And have a better chance of tertiary education.

And whilst I understand your fear Barbs, racism here is a lot less than the 80s, and appears to be less with each new generation. I think we will become less racist, albeit that there has been a backlash of late. I think our major parties will be more wary of immigration in the future and such a reaction will hopefully die away
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by thekungfury @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:56 pm

Barbarianna wrote:America no longer holds the sense of vastness and escapability that would permit a carefree journey in a camper across the country as I once facncied. The ugliness of its innards seem far too well writ across its every impressive skyline to enjoy what must be a beautiful country. In other words, it's a massive duplicitous shithole.

Agreed. There have been a few things that have lifted the Hollywood veil for me in recent years. Honest and grim portrayal of real America/Americans in shows like The Wire, Treme, Making A Murderer and podcasts like Serial (recommended, if you haven't) makes you realise just how shit the shithole is in places.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Barbarianna @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:07 pm

Making a Murderer is the most startling thing I have seen in some time. It really does beggar belief so much that I have to remind myself several times in an episode that this is not a scripted show, it is actually unfolding real life. I gather that there have been developments in the case since it last halted a year or so back. Maybe its fame has forced the hand of the judicial system in that backwater to reconsider? I hope so. It makes me shudder to think how any given place can become so parochial, so complacent in its blatant treachery. More to the point, I have seen echoes of it in the UK, albeit at levels less than the courts themselves.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Dirk @ Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:32 pm

thekungfury wrote:Agreed. There have been a few things that have lifted the Hollywood veil for me in recent years. Honest and grim portrayal of real America/Americans in shows like The Wire, Treme, Making A Murderer and podcasts like Serial (recommended, if you haven't) makes you realise just how shit the shithole is in places.

Never take a wrong turn in the US and ended up in such a place?

I have done it in the UK and been distinctly nervous, but the US it is a whole different story, not so much because it was any more frightening, but because of the desolation on a grand scalse
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Disastrous @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:17 am

thekungfury wrote:
Barbarianna wrote:America no longer holds the sense of vastness and escapability that would permit a carefree journey in a camper across the country as I once facncied. The ugliness of its innards seem far too well writ across its every impressive skyline to enjoy what must be a beautiful country. In other words, it's a massive duplicitous shithole.

Agreed. There have been a few things that have lifted the Hollywood veil for me in recent years. Honest and grim portrayal of real America/Americans in shows like The Wire, Treme, Making A Murderer and podcasts like Serial (recommended, if you haven't) makes you realise just how shit the shithole is in places.



Depressingly true. I've never been anywhere in the US and I honestly have less and less interest in doing so. Disappointing for me as I fell in love with the idea of the place from books and songs as a kid but I suspect that America is pretty hard to find these days. Couple that with a top and tail of airports, immigration queues and humorous homeland security bellends and even if you do, the experience is ruined by the time you get there/home.

Maybe I'm wrong but stories like the one above just make me feel completely detached from America.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Paul H @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:18 am

Dirk wrote:
thekungfury wrote:Agreed. There have been a few things that have lifted the Hollywood veil for me in recent years. Honest and grim portrayal of real America/Americans in shows like The Wire, Treme, Making A Murderer and podcasts like Serial (recommended, if you haven't) makes you realise just how shit the shithole is in places.

Never take a wrong turn in the US and ended up in such a place?

I have done it in the UK and been distinctly nervous, but the US it is a whole different story, not so much because it was any more frightening, but because of the desolation on a grand scalse


And, of course, the guns. America now has - statistically - a gun for every man, woman and child alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Käsemeister @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:50 am

Disastrous wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Barbarianna wrote:America no longer holds the sense of vastness and escapability that would permit a carefree journey in a camper across the country as I once facncied. The ugliness of its innards seem far too well writ across its every impressive skyline to enjoy what must be a beautiful country. In other words, it's a massive duplicitous shithole.

Agreed. There have been a few things that have lifted the Hollywood veil for me in recent years. Honest and grim portrayal of real America/Americans in shows like The Wire, Treme, Making A Murderer and podcasts like Serial (recommended, if you haven't) makes you realise just how shit the shithole is in places.



Depressingly true. I've never been anywhere in the US and I honestly have less and less interest in doing so. Disappointing for me as I fell in love with the idea of the place from books and songs as a kid but I suspect that America is pretty hard to find these days. Couple that with a top and tail of airports, immigration queues and humorous homeland security bellends and even if you do, the experience is ruined by the time you get there/home.

Maybe I'm wrong but stories like the one above just make me feel completely detached from America.


There are some lovely, lovely places. But then there are some truly terrible ones too.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Disastrous @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:46 am

Käsemeister wrote:
Disastrous wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
Barbarianna wrote:America no longer holds the sense of vastness and escapability that would permit a carefree journey in a camper across the country as I once facncied. The ugliness of its innards seem far too well writ across its every impressive skyline to enjoy what must be a beautiful country. In other words, it's a massive duplicitous shithole.

Agreed. There have been a few things that have lifted the Hollywood veil for me in recent years. Honest and grim portrayal of real America/Americans in shows like The Wire, Treme, Making A Murderer and podcasts like Serial (recommended, if you haven't) makes you realise just how shit the shithole is in places.



Depressingly true. I've never been anywhere in the US and I honestly have less and less interest in doing so. Disappointing for me as I fell in love with the idea of the place from books and songs as a kid but I suspect that America is pretty hard to find these days. Couple that with a top and tail of airports, immigration queues and humorous homeland security bellends and even if you do, the experience is ruined by the time you get there/home.

Maybe I'm wrong but stories like the one above just make me feel completely detached from America.


There are some lovely, lovely places. But then there are some truly terrible ones too.



Yeah, she liked Cali, in fairness. But she said she gets the impression that mostly, the only reason people are nice is in expectation of a massive tip etc and that business colleagues routinely hide extraordinary racism behind a veneer of soccer-mom and so on. Speaking in huge generalities of course, as there's probably no such thing as 'Americans' but she felt it quite a stark contrast to last week with the Balinese, who seem like the most genuinely pleasant, helpful and hospitable people. I think we have had the best service we have ever had anywhere, and it was mainly just because everyone was really nice.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by thekungfury @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:24 am

Disastrous wrote: there's probably no such thing as 'Americans'

Charts like below show how varied they are
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (123.82 KiB) Viewed 2474 times


But then again if we had a map covering Europe with the % of people who've ever travelled outside Europe I'd expect something similar, perhaps even worse.

America is big, m'kay. Just like Europe there are great and shit places and it would be wrong to write off Europe because Romania. However the whole myth of it being the land of hope and glory and it being the most developed nation is definitely BS. There are still vast areas of New Orleans that are still derelict a decade after Katrina and the Waves toured. I'm sure if that was a white area it wouldn't be like that.
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by moleamol @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:29 am

thekungfury wrote: a decade after Katrina and the Waves toured.

:D
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Re: Racism, patriotism and football in the USA

Post by Strawman @ Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:35 am

I know someone who worked in El Paso (texas) for a bit and they said over 10% of the population had no running water, yet the US has more Billionaires than any other country so 'go figure' as a 'Merkin might say.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... er/471909/
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