General ELection 2017

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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Pigeon @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:11 pm

Dirk wrote:
Pigeon wrote:
Dirk wrote:It appears that even amoung Remainers who didn't vote Tory last time, the Tories are favoured for being able to negotiate the best deal when we do leave.


Given the way the Tories' activities so far have been aimed at making a bad situation as much worse as possible, one has to ask: are these people fcuking blind or what?


Probably more the case that they are not blind to how Corbyn is blind to anything that does not accord with his views


As opposed to May being blind to anything that does not accord with the promotion and enthusiastic pursuit of suicidally destructive insanity, as continually demonstrated by her actions?

The Tories got us into this mess, and far from doing anything to mitigate it, they have made it clear as bleeding daylight that they are determined to make it even more of a mess than its original proponents envisaged. Certainly they haven't shown the remotest sign of "being able to negotiate the best deal when we do leave", nor of even trying to. All we've seen is an inability to define what a "best deal" even is, wishful thinking turned up to the max and presented as inevitable certainty, and an inclination to demand the moon on a stick from a position of utter weakness while making that position even worse by insulting those in the position of strength. Anyone who looks at their record so far and still thinks they'll provide the best result is quite simply a fcuking idiot in abject denial.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:39 pm

Pigeon wrote: Anyone who looks at their record so far and still thinks they'll provide the best result is quite simply a fcuking idiot in abject denial.

Or they just disagree with you.

One or the other
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by thekungfury @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:43 pm

CJ+ wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
thekungfury wrote:Tim Farron is a Christian fundamentalist homophobe


I'm fine with the Christian bit, very uneasy with the fundamentalist bit and appalled by the homophobe bit.

FFS! Why can't they just be normal??

Still, he's the least worst and will get my vote, although it's through gritted teeth.

Chill, fam, he's a god-botherer but he keeps it to himself.

And he's not a 'phobe. Doesn't agree with it, wouldn't do it himself, has voted for LGBT+ rights at every opportunity. The much-vaunted "butbutbut he voted against the gay marriage bill" is wrong, too. He abstained in order to table an amendment that would make the bill more amenable to trans people, like Rod.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jennie- ... 95906.html

He believes homosexuality is a sin. He was asked 3 times in an interview and he flat refused to answer the question. A day later in parliament after getting slammed in the media he said he didn't think it's a sin. In other words he's a politician who wanted to get rid of bad press and lied. And yet his party is still the least worst option.

Lib dems are also fans of the politics of envy which leaves a bitter taste. The mansion tax wouldn't be affecting me but I still don't like the principle of it. Fortunately Lib Dem policies, especially the big ticket ones, are never going to get through. I want them in a Con/LD coalition again to keep the Right from getting Righter and drag us back into the centre.

It's shitty that we've become a Far Right vs Far Left parliament. Why can't we be nice and more centrist? I loathe Corbyn for being so unelectable that it's allowed Tories to do whatever the fcuk they want without consequence.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:46 pm

thekungfury wrote:
He believes homosexuality is a sin. He was asked 3 times in an interview and he flat refused to answer the question. A day later in parliament after getting slammed in the media he said he didn't think it's a sin. In other words he's a politician who wanted to get rid of bad press and lied. .

My understanding is that he still dodged the question as to whether having gay sex was a sin. That was the report I saw but I haven't seen a recording myself
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:52 pm

Are the Tories that extreme right?

Rich pay higher % of tax than ever
NHS funding up
Liberal policies on homosexuality
School funding up
Overseas aid highest ever

The only aspects that can be considered right wing off the top of my head are
1) austerity - and trying to balance the books is not extremist
2)benefit cuts - which even the CTF liberal conscience has ummed and aahed about


Brexit is not really a right wing policy, that is spread across the board
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by thekungfury @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:57 pm

Dirk wrote:
thekungfury wrote:
He believes homosexuality is a sin. He was asked 3 times in an interview and he flat refused to answer the question. A day later in parliament after getting slammed in the media he said he didn't think it's a sin. In other words he's a politician who wanted to get rid of bad press and lied. .

My understanding is that he still dodged the question as to whether having gay sex was a sin. That was the report I saw but I haven't seen a recording myself

Sorry yes it was gay sex.
https://youtu.be/VNA3-YntZk4
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:01 pm

Dirk wrote:NHS funding up

But the NHS is collapsing, the need for more money is largely demographic, a larger number of people >60, cost more in medical bills.
So in real terms funding has been cut for the NHS ust like everything else.

Dirk wrote:Liberal policies on homosexuality

Fair enough

Dirk wrote:School funding up

Again down to population growth rather than a belief in education for the masses, look at their return of the Grammer school which no-one in education approves of, for your ideologically right wing rabid Tory policy making.

Dirk wrote:Overseas aid highest ever

Isn't it just in line with UN recommended levels (proportion of GDP) which it has been for years so why claim highest ever?


Dirk wrote:Brexit is not really a right wing policy, that is spread across the board


So UKIP and Britain first aren't right wing? Really !!!!, the marginal vote in favour of Brexit was swung by anti-immigration rhetoric, Boris Johnson's claim that 200 million Turks were about to get the right to move to the UK among the many instances of fear of the foreign which the Brexit campaigns used.

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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by thekungfury @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:05 pm

Dirk wrote:Are the Tories that extreme right?

Rich pay higher % of tax than ever because the rich are richer than ever and the divide between rich and poor is bigger than ever
NHS funding up. Stats can show they're not in real terms. I don't know who to believe tbh
Liberal policies on homosexualitygay marriage was a David Cameron policy. More Tory MPs voted against it than for it
School funding up no idea
Overseas aid highest ever true, but May has said she's considering cutting it.

Brexit is not really a right wing policy, that is spread across the board. It's the isolationist hard Brexit stance that's troubling

My point essentially is the Tories post 2015 GE and certainly post referendum have lurched further from the party I was voting for.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:29 pm

To try and answer Teeks and Strawms

Rich pay more tax: RPay divide has not increased under this Tory (or Tory LD) govt - https://www.ft.com/content/24e88c30-bc5f-11e6-8b45-b8b81dd5d080
NHS frunding- Population may be getting older, but that makes it even harder to find money

Homsexuality - Yes Teeks, it was a Cameron policy, but you can't pick the bits you don't like from them and ignore the others. Have been so few chnages under May its hard to know ehere she will take us

School Funding- I think funding has increased quicker than number of pupils. Are grammar schools really extremist? Right wing perhaps, but as someone who suffered from the fcucking diaster that was universal comprehensive education I would arue that they were even more extremeist - idealogy over evidence/reality

Overseas aid -yes it is in line with UN recommendations, but very few do it, and Cameron was the first to do so in UK. Media are encouraging her to drop it, but I have not seen any statement from her on the matter

Brexit: Labour lost loads of votes to UKIP last time over Brexit, it was a policy that appeals and repels on both sides of the divide And May has too little room for manouevre to be a completely soft exit

Teeks - apart from Brexit - which the populace voted for, how have the Tories lurched from what you were voting for?
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:31 pm

Dirk wrote:NHS frunding- Population may be getting older, but that makes it even harder to find money


But employment is at an all time high in real terms i.e. total number of people employed, so that doesn't fly Dirk.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:39 pm

Strawman wrote:
Dirk wrote:NHS frunding- Population may be getting older, but that makes it even harder to find money


But employment is at an all time high in real terms i.e. total number of people employed, so that doesn't fly Dirk.

But GDP growth fairly flat in real terms (thus indicating that there is no more money, but the poor are doing better than the rich as well). Plus they had to balance the books aftyer the Gordon Brown spending splurge

Remember that? They were handed a real shitheap.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:51 pm

Yes GDP growth is low, certainly by EU standards, and will likely remain low or even go into reverse once Brexit really starts to bite. I don't think the poor are doing better than they were 8 years ago. Yes Gordon Brown spent too much money back in 2007-10 but he's not leading any political party at the moment.

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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:03 pm

Strawman wrote:Yes GDP growth is low, certainly by EU standards, and will likely remain low or even go into reverse once Brexit really starts to bite. I don't think the poor are doing better than they were 8 years ago. Yes Gordon Brown spent too much money back in 2007-10 but he's not leading any political party at the moment.


If Corbyn he will make Broiwn look sane and economically literate. GDP would rise for a few years. But the damage would take 20 to undo

And Farron just has a set of wishes wrapped up with a gift label that claims it to be an economic policy. Probably includes free fluffy unicorns for everyone too.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:11 pm

Dirk wrote:And Farron just has a set of wishes wrapped up with a gift label that claims it to be an economic policy. Probably includes free fluffy unicorns for everyone too.


If Farron won and abadoned Brexit, he could afford to buy everyone a unicorn and still leave the UK in a better position than May ever will, plus keep the NI peace process intact, prevent Scotland leaving the Union etc.
Brexit is without question the most destructive thing any UK politician has proposed, no-one worldwide can believe it is happening, apart from Trump who approves naturally.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:34 pm

Strawman wrote:Brexit is without question the most destructive thing any UK politician has proposed, no-one worldwide can believe it is happening, apart from Trump who approves naturally.

You haven't read Corbyn's economic polices then
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:37 pm

Labour hasn't published it's election manifesto yet, so no I haven't and neither have you.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:39 pm

Strawman wrote:Labour hasn't published it's election manifesto yet, so no I haven't and neither have you.

He has written and said much on the subject. I have read some of that and it is scary. Far more so than Brexit
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:43 pm

He is irrelevant though, un-electable and doesn't show any signs of wanting to be elected, he's lived his whole professional life opposing things rather than doing things.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:52 pm

Strawman wrote:He is irrelevant though, un-electable and doesn't show any signs of wanting to be elected, he's lived his whole professional life opposing things rather than doing things.

SO there is a choice between:

Tories - who have some policies you don't like
Labour - who you claim are unelectable, but will be elected if people don't vote Tory and who would be disastrous
LD - Who have no coherent policy and even less likely to win than the lot you say are unelectable
Ditto Greens
UKIP - I assume we can rule them out?

That seems to leave you with
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A choice I could sympathise with
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:01 pm

So like the others on here who have expressed an intention, I am voting Liberal, because if they can get enough MP's to broker a coalition deal, like they did in 2010, they could have a condition of forming a coalition scrapping Brexit.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:09 pm

I understand the logic. Though I can't see LD going with the Tories again
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Strawman @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:27 pm

Yup I see that as unlikely as well, still better than voting for May, since that can be interpreted as approval.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by thekungfury @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:49 pm

LD have ruled out teaming up with Corbyn calling him "electorally toxic" but when specifically asked Farron wouldn't say yes or no to a Tory coalition.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Dirk @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:54 pm

thekungfury wrote:LD have ruled out teaming up with Corbyn calling him "electorally toxic" but when specifically asked Farron wouldn't say yes or no to a Tory coalition.

Really? I missed that.

Personally I thought last time Clegg did what he had to do and it was right for the country, but I thought internal politics would scream against it again. But maybe all the people that hated the idea quit over last time so it will be easier now :shrug:
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by manfromdelmonte @ Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Lib Dems for me, especially as Simon Hughes would become my MP again, and he seems like a good egg.

Also this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ?CMP=fb_gu
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:03 am

Liam Byrne on the Today programme just now touting the wisdom and fairness of asset taxes. So well beyond the mansion tax.

WTF is wrong with these people?
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:25 am

Greg66 wrote:asset taxes


What a fcuking horrible, envious concept that is.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by GingerNinja @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:12 am

My view is that if you think Brexit is the most damaging and horrendous thing that is going to happen to this country for along time, you have to abandon all your prior political allegiances, and vote for LibDem. I know Farron is a horrible anti-gay God botherer, but the LibDems are the only party who appear to want to reverse Brexit. An elected government can be ejected in 5 years time if they're rubbish, the Brexit process is not once finalised. Forget the minutiae of the LDs policies - the only one that really matters in this election, is the Brexit decision.

ETA, that's if you're English, obvs.
Last edited by GingerNinja on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:17 am

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
Greg66 wrote:asset taxes


What a fcuking horrible, envious concept that is.

Damn commies!
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Re: General ELection 2017

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:19 am

GingerNinja wrote:My view is that if you think Brexit is the most damaging and horrendous thing that is going to happen to this country for along time, you have to abandon all your prior political allegiances, and vote for LibDem. I know Farron is a horrible anti-gay God botherer, but the LibDems are the only party who appear to want to reverse Brexit. An elected government can be ejected in 5 years time if they're rubbish, the Brexit process is not once finalised. Forget the minutiae of the LDs policies - the only one that really matters in this election, is the Brexit decision.

ETA, that's if you're English, obvs.


How would/could they reverse brexit?
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