Log burners - talk to me

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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Fred Flange @ Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:51 pm

Clown Ice Skater #4 wrote: ...a load of gravel delivered on a huge pallet...


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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:52 pm

Fred Flange wrote:
Clown Ice Skater #4 wrote: ...a load of gravel delivered on a huge pallet...


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What?
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Strawman @ Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:54 pm

I imagine the gravel was in a bag, FF maybe knew that and was making a funny, or didn't and it was a genuine question.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Fred Flange @ Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:59 pm

righto, a jumbo bag type thing.

I had a vision of some big hairy arsed navvy furiously shovelling a mountain of gravel onto a pallet and trying not to let it fall between the slats.

I get a lot of visions.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by thekungfury @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:23 pm

So we've moved in and the weather is threatening to get cold enough to light my wood. Speaking of wood the previous owner left this little lot behind.
Image

The white handles on the left are for a bag containing maybe 1/3rd of what's in the store. Not a forest but gratefully free. Also it's nicely seasoned 10-15% moisture. I've been going round poking every little piece of exposed wood in the house since it arrived.

Anyway in preparation for the first lighting I called a couple of local stove servicing people to come clean the chimney and give it a proper safety check. It was only installed last October and seems barely used but I'm happier it being checked. The chap turned up today and as soon as he stuck his head in he said "It's got no liner". I dug out the HETAS certificate which says installed with a Poujoulat liner. He went on and on about how unsafe it is not to have a liner. How it's against building regs and how it'll pour CO into the room and kill us all. That's if we don't get a chimney fire first. He called HETAS who have sent me a complaint form.

I called the company that installed it who said there was definitely a liner installed and laughed at me asking how I knew there wasn't. I told them a chimney sweep has just been round and she said "Oh it's not ABC Ltd is it?" as if she's had problems with them. It wasn't them however the guy here definitely had a big beef with them. In fact when I booked him over the phone he asked who installed it. When I told them he already began slagging them off which continued during most of his visit.

The stove company lady told me to look inside the fuse box which would have the plaque to show the liner was installed. It wasn't there and she said someone must have removed it. She said she'd send someone round to prove it, paused then said "Ah, I've just checked the system and there isn't a liner. It was in the original booking but for some reason they never went ahead with it". Hmmm...

She told me not to worry as it was definitely safe as she knows the houses and they have a clay liner. She lives nearby in a similar house and has the same herself. Tomorrow someone is coming round to do a smoke bomb test for leaks and to give it a clean and safety check. I'm sort of not happy with the installer doing the safety check. What are they going to say?

I've done some googling and there is a mix of people saying "Metal liners are a huge waste of money. You're fine with clay" all the way through to "Seriously get one otherwise you will die when it's first lit" So, any advice?
Last edited by thekungfury on Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:27 pm

My house is 1930's. I don't have a liner. I have used a burner for 10 years. The chimney sweep cleans it. I have not died.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:30 pm

Presumably the previous owners survived?

I think I'd be more concerned about how it affected home insurance etc. Do HETAS state it's definitely necessary? If so, you're probably on rocky ground if there's a fire or smoke damage or something.

Fwiw I reckon it'd be perfectly safe but I think I'd want independent advice.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:34 pm

How did houses manage before liners?
Did everybody die every time they lit a fire?
No.

Is your house new, teeks?
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:37 pm

Il Duce wrote:How did houses manage before liners?
Did everybody die every time they lit a fire?
No.

Is your house new, teeks?

Dangerous advice based on false logic.
Wood burners are different to open fires as they burn slower and require a better draw, hence a liner is required.

HETAS say:
here is no regulation requiring an existing chimney to be lined. However, the installer of any appliance must satisfy themselves that the chimney is free from defects and suitable for its intended use.
If any work undertaken on the chimney, including installation of a new liner, is done in conjunction with the installation of a heating appliance, then that work is a controlled service and must be undertaken by a Competent Person or approved by your local area Building Control.
Please note that any alteration to a fireplace which renders it capable of being used for a different fuel e.g. from gas to solid fuel, is subject to Building Regulations.


So if the installers are happy, I reckon you can relax and enjoy it.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by thekungfury @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:39 pm

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:Presumably the previous owners survived?

Yes but it was installed Oct last year and we had a mild winter. It looks barely touched.

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:I think I'd be more concerned about how it affected home insurance etc. Do HETAS state it's definitely necessary? If so, you're probably on rocky ground if there's a fire or smoke damage or something.

Fwiw I reckon it'd be perfectly safe but I think I'd want independent advice.

HETAS don't say it's necessary (bloke earlier saying against building regs was wrong). I'll check my insurance policy docs.

I'm also thinking about independent advice. Someone who didn't install it nor hate the installer.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by spast1kunt @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:42 pm

If the work was done by a HETAS registered company your heirs and successors can sue them for negligence if you're all asphyxiated so what's the problem?
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by minornut @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:04 pm

Is the chimney on an outside wall? It can be a problem particularly with north facing walls causing the flue gases to stall as they cool too fast going up the chimney. Also risks depositing resins which can then catch fire.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Bodhi @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:12 pm

In our previous house we had a log burner without a liner. It was swept each year and we had no problems at all. I wouldn't be overly concerned using it without a liner but maybe it's something to think about getting fitted if you can.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Hooli @ Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:51 pm

I've run my burners with and without liners, they burn better & hotter for less fuel with a liner I've found. I believe the constant flue size improves the draw so they burn cleaner.

Pretty sure your building insurance will only say it has to be HETAS certified/passed building control.
Last edited by Hooli on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Il Duce @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:10 am

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
Il Duce wrote:How did houses manage before liners?
Did everybody die every time they lit a fire?
No.

Is your house new, teeks?

Dangerous advice based on false logic.
Wood burners are different to open fires as they burn slower and require a better draw, hence a liner is required.



Fair comment.
I've also now seen that it was only just installed and hardly used.
Mine was well used and the people who sold it to me didn't die hence my comment.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by CJ+ @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:17 am

General question on these things: some of the houses I'm looking at have log burners but generally no more info than that.

I don't know anything about them (other than that they burn logs, obv) - are there any red flags or must-haves? Could a log burner (if inappropriately installed/used) cause problems which could be a dealbreaker?
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Aesgarth @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:40 am

CJ+ wrote:General question on these things: some of the houses I'm looking at have log burners but generally no more info than that.

I don't know anything about them (other than that they burn logs, obv) - are there any red flags or must-haves? Could a log burner (if inappropriately installed/used) cause problems which could be a dealbreaker?

Carbon monoxide would be the big one, which mainly comes down to installation. If no more info is provided then factor the cost of an inspection into the cost of your move. Unless renting, then landlords problem i believe. Rectifying installation issues could get moderately expensive
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Käsemeister @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:48 am

That.

As for the burners themselves you can buy a £400 one from Machinemart like a Dacia, or a £10,000 one from the Nordics like a Maclaren. Both will do the job perfectly well but one will be higher spec, more efficient and likely be more technological.

No matter the cost, they all need looking after - cleaning the glass properly, regularly replacing seals and such like so it's well worth giving the stove a once over to see when it was last done. Won't cost much if you DIY, a couple of hundred at worst if you pay A Man.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by CJ+ @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:12 am

Thanks both, good info.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Hooli @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:59 am

Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

Either CO or CO2 alarm (I forget which) is always a good idea too, just in case.

ETA. See if they are log burners or mutli-fuel stoves, the latter can burn coal/smokeless fuel so needs a lot less topping up when lit. Mine stays in all night on smokeless fuel & can just be topped up in the morning as it runs 24/7 due to the central heating not being finished. Wood would have gone out over night & need relighting, plus the house would be much colder to come down to.
Last edited by Hooli on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by ttwiggy @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:01 pm

Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

Either CO or CO2 alarm (I forget which) is always a good idea too, just in case.


CO. A CO2 alarm is what wakes Turbobloke up in the mornings.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by CJ+ @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:06 pm

We have a CO alarm, because 'er indoors is paranoid about the GCH gassing us all to death in our sleep.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Hooli @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:17 pm

ttwiggy wrote:
Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

Either CO or CO2 alarm (I forget which) is always a good idea too, just in case.


CO. A CO2 alarm is what wakes Turbobloke up in the mornings.


Ta.

CJ+ wrote:We have a CO alarm, because 'er indoors is paranoid about the GCH gassing us all to death in our sleep.


She'll love log burners then. They can put out something like 100 times more CO than a gas boiler when not functioning correctly, hence stoves require CO alarms over a certain size but gas doesn't.
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Log burners - talk to me

Post by Käsemeister @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:33 pm

Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

Either CO or CO2 alarm (I forget which) is always a good idea too, just in case.

ETA. See if they are log burners or mutli-fuel stoves, the latter can burn coal/smokeless fuel so needs a lot less topping up when lit. Mine stays in all night on smokeless fuel & can just be topped up in the morning as it runs 24/7 due to the central heating not being finished. Wood would have gone out over night & need relighting, plus the house would be much colder to come down to.


Any decent stove will run overnight on wood if it's designed to. It doesn't need coal.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Aesgarth @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:34 pm

Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

That or it's been installed by a HETAS fitter... You don't need both.

If you're getting one fitted HETAS is easier, building control is cheaper. Generally speaking.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Aesgarth @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:36 pm

Käsemeister wrote:
Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

Either CO or CO2 alarm (I forget which) is always a good idea too, just in case.

ETA. See if they are log burners or mutli-fuel stoves, the latter can burn coal/smokeless fuel so needs a lot less topping up when lit. Mine stays in all night on smokeless fuel & can just be topped up in the morning as it runs 24/7 due to the central heating not being finished. Wood would have gone out over night & need relighting, plus the house would be much colder to come down to.


Any decent stove will run overnight on wood if it's designed to. It doesn't need coal.

It dosen't need to be a decent one, my home made outdoor stoves with badly sealed doors and permanently open vents will run overnight without going out with little effort.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Hooli @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Aesgarth wrote:
Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

That or it's been installed by a HETAS fitter... You don't need both.

If you're getting one fitted HETAS is easier, building control is cheaper. Generally speaking.


I thought part of the HETAS thing was registering with building control? It's a few years since I spoke about it with so I forget.

As to stoves lasting all night on wood, neither of mine do. I get about 5 hours before they run out of fuel & go out.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Käsemeister @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:46 pm

Aesgarth wrote:
Käsemeister wrote:
Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

Either CO or CO2 alarm (I forget which) is always a good idea too, just in case.

ETA. See if they are log burners or mutli-fuel stoves, the latter can burn coal/smokeless fuel so needs a lot less topping up when lit. Mine stays in all night on smokeless fuel & can just be topped up in the morning as it runs 24/7 due to the central heating not being finished. Wood would have gone out over night & need relighting, plus the house would be much colder to come down to.


Any decent stove will run overnight on wood if it's designed to. It doesn't need coal.

It dosen't need to be a decent one, my home made outdoor stoves with badly sealed doors and permanently open vents will run overnight without going out with little effort.


Then it's decent. :D
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by moleamol @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:32 pm

Hooli wrote:
Aesgarth wrote:
Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

That or it's been installed by a HETAS fitter... You don't need both.

If you're getting one fitted HETAS is easier, building control is cheaper. Generally speaking.


I thought part of the HETAS thing was registering with building control? It's a few years since I spoke about it with so I forget.

As to stoves lasting all night on wood, neither of mine do. I get about 5 hours before they run out of fuel & go out.

Are you burning pallets you find? Like a womble might.
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Re: Log burners - talk to me

Post by Il Duce @ Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:56 pm

moleamol wrote:
Hooli wrote:
Aesgarth wrote:
Hooli wrote:Make sure it's been approved & registered with building control, that is legally required before you light it.

That or it's been installed by a HETAS fitter... You don't need both.

If you're getting one fitted HETAS is easier, building control is cheaper. Generally speaking.


I thought part of the HETAS thing was registering with building control? It's a few years since I spoke about it with so I forget.

As to stoves lasting all night on wood, neither of mine do. I get about 5 hours before they run out of fuel & go out.

Are you burning pallets you find? Like a womble might.


Laugh
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