Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Fri May 04, 2018 11:54 am

tanglerat wrote:That welding is coming closer and closer....


Nah. I think I can just fit a reed valve kit for about £150. Possibly have to dremel that lump out of the way.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Pigeon @ Fri May 04, 2018 8:21 pm

I'm a bit confused as to what is going on here - I mean, yes, I can see the gouges in the photos, but it's not clear to me how it happened and I don't think that's entirely because I don't specifically know that engine.

I take it that admission of mixture to the crankcase is controlled by the surface of the crank web coming very close to that raised area around the port, and further round the crank it is cut away? And your idea of fitting a reed valve kit is because you suspect this won't work any more?

I'm not clear what has hit what. The gouges look as if there is something sticking out of the crank that has scored its way round and round the inside of the casing, but your second photo as far as I can make out is showing a bit of casing sticking out and touching the crank - which of course would not itself produce gouges in the casing.

First guess would be that a hard piece of shit has come in through the intake and got stuck between the crank and the casing, thus making the gouges, and the sticky-out bit of casing that I think I can see in the second photo is something else that it also hit and distorted. Other than that... is it possible that there are two slightly different patterns of crank for that engine and whoever had it before has put the wrong one in by mistake? Or... is the main bearing on that side fcuked so the crank can slop about and hit the case?

What Is To Be Done? (as Lenin said). First, check the bearings, main and big-end, both for pre-existing fuckedness and for bits of crap from the damage getting into them - which has almost certainly happened. Replace anything that's even remotely suspicious. Bearings are not expensive; get them from a bearing place, not a Vespa place. The big-end one is trickier but someone with a big press can take the crank apart and change it. Fit new oil seals while you're at it, too.

How is the surface of the web? It looks marked but I can't tell how deep the marks are. If they're not too deep they may not matter.

The gouge itself does not matter, apart from the little bit of it that crosses the raised surface around the port. It's not impossible that even that bit may not matter - it's not exactly a brilliant seal even if everything's new - but that's where familiarity with the specific engine is needed to make a proper judgement.

But what I'd be inclined to do is restore that raised surface bit by filling the gouges with heat-resistant epoxy putty. Ordinary Araldite won't take the heat. Plastic Padding make some stuff called "Marine Epoxy" which seems to be tough enough to stand the conditions (it's very different both chemically and physically from the usual Plastic Padding bodywork filler). The important thing is to clean the absolute fcuk out of the surfaces - first with files and sandpaper, then with plenty of acetone, so there is not the slightest trace of grease. You're not just trying to make them look nice, you're trying to get the surface chemically pure; you have to be really obsessive about it. Etching the surface clean with caustic soda as well is probably a good idea, although I've always managed with just abrasives and acetone and boredom.

After it's had a couple of days to thoroughly cure you can then file/sand the surface back to the correct profile. I don't recommend a Dremel - too easy to take too much off - just sculpt it gently by hand.

This is all somewhat tentative since I haven't actually been to your workshop and seen the thing in the metal, but hopefully it's of some use.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Sat May 05, 2018 10:09 am

Good post Pigeon.

The crank looks new which makes me believe this was done by a loose circlip or woodruf key before I bought the kit and the crank was damaged.
The gouge was hidden because the crank was in the damaged side and hiding it.

I changed all of the bearings and oil seals when I assembled it.

I've been on a scooter forum and the removal of the sealing pad (the lump with the hole) and reed valve fitting is quite normal so I'm going to try that.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by S1K @ Sat May 05, 2018 10:29 am

If you're looking for a metal epoxy paste then JB Weld is what you need. You can get it in Halfords and it's just ridiculously strong stuff.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Sat May 05, 2018 1:18 pm

S1K wrote:If you're looking for a metal epoxy paste then JB Weld is what you need. You can get it in Halfords and it's just ridiculously strong stuff.


Thanks. Already got some.
It's brilliant.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Pigeon @ Mon May 07, 2018 12:17 am

Il Duce wrote:I've been on a scooter forum and the removal of the sealing pad (the lump with the hole) and reed valve fitting is quite normal so I'm going to try that.


Oh, does that bit come out then? Can't tell that from the photos. That makes it easy then.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Mon May 07, 2018 12:49 pm

Pigeon wrote:
Il Duce wrote:I've been on a scooter forum and the removal of the sealing pad (the lump with the hole) and reed valve fitting is quite normal so I'm going to try that.


Oh, does that bit come out then? Can't tell that from the photos. That makes it easy then.


No you just grind it flush with the casing.
The sealing pad hole was only open to the manifold/carb at a certain point in the crank's rotation and so it sucked in at the point when the engine needed it. The new manifold and reed valve effectively take over the supply on demand: the manifold is blocked until the crank rotates and creates a vacuum, then the reed valve opens, air/fuel mixture is sucked down the manifold for the piston the explode it.
On tuned engines they fit a full circle crank which does something else ( A Full Circle Crankshaft, in comparison to original crankshafts, has a closed shaft flange. Precompression is higher, crankcase turbulence is reduced.) and gives you more power but that would then mean big money plus a bigger carb and re-jetting and I'm not creating a racer so it'd be wasted money.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Pigeon @ Mon May 07, 2018 6:14 pm

Right, that's what I originally figured was going on.

You will probably have to fcuk with jets anyway even just with the "basic" reed valve conversion, because it inevitably changes the breathing characteristics of the engine. That thing of the valve opening in response to crankcase depression means the timing is (a) not the same to begin with, and (b) changes with engine speed.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Deuteronomy @ Tue May 08, 2018 9:19 am

Pigeon wrote:You will probably have to fcuk with jets anyway even just with the "basic" reed valve conversion, because it inevitably changes the breathing characteristics of the engine. That thing of the valve opening in response to crankcase depression means the timing is (a) not the same to begin with, and (b) changes with engine speed.


This.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Tue May 08, 2018 9:59 am

Deuteronomy wrote:
Pigeon wrote:You will probably have to fcuk with jets anyway even just with the "basic" reed valve conversion, because it inevitably changes the breathing characteristics of the engine. That thing of the valve opening in response to crankcase depression means the timing is (a) not the same to begin with, and (b) changes with engine speed.


This.


It has 12v electronic ignition but I have no idea if this makes any difference.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Deuteronomy @ Tue May 08, 2018 10:34 am

Il Duce wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
Pigeon wrote:You will probably have to fcuk with jets anyway even just with the "basic" reed valve conversion, because it inevitably changes the breathing characteristics of the engine. That thing of the valve opening in response to crankcase depression means the timing is (a) not the same to begin with, and (b) changes with engine speed.


This.


It has 12v electronic ignition but I have no idea if this makes any difference.


Not to the jets, no - the jets are in the carb.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 am

Deuteronomy wrote:
Il Duce wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
Pigeon wrote:You will probably have to fcuk with jets anyway even just with the "basic" reed valve conversion, because it inevitably changes the breathing characteristics of the engine. That thing of the valve opening in response to crankcase depression means the timing is (a) not the same to begin with, and (b) changes with engine speed.


This.


It has 12v electronic ignition but I have no idea if this makes any difference.


Not to the jets, no - the jets are in the carb.


Yes I know where the jets are. I should have said I was referring to the timing.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Deuteronomy @ Tue May 08, 2018 12:05 pm

You've probably got electronic ignition from the sounds of it (ie not points) so the timing should still be easily adjustable - not familiar with this engine though.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Tue May 08, 2018 1:34 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:You've probably got electronic ignition from the sounds of it (ie not points) so the timing should still be easily adjustable - not familiar with this engine though.


Yes it's a doddle. Apparently. The stator will only fit over the driveshaft in one position. The innards of the stator can only be adjusted by about 10 degrees total so it won't be far off.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Deuteronomy @ Tue May 08, 2018 1:45 pm

Il Duce wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:You've probably got electronic ignition from the sounds of it (ie not points) so the timing should still be easily adjustable - not familiar with this engine though.


Yes it's a doddle. Apparently. The stator will only fit over the driveshaft in one position. The innards of the stator can only be adjusted by about 10 degrees total so it won't be far off.


You'd be surprised, 10 degrees is quite a lot in timing terms.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Tue May 08, 2018 2:24 pm

Deuteronomy wrote:
Il Duce wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:You've probably got electronic ignition from the sounds of it (ie not points) so the timing should still be easily adjustable - not familiar with this engine though.


Yes it's a doddle. Apparently. The stator will only fit over the driveshaft in one position. The innards of the stator can only be adjusted by about 10 degrees total so it won't be far off.


You'd be surprised, 10 degrees is quite a lot in timing terms.



I know but it's removed the option of the 350 others plus there are four guide marks inside the stator that you match up to a mark on the casing:
A I I IT
I've just found out that A is for 200cc (23BTDC) and IT is for 125 and 150cc (18BTDC)

Sort of like this:

Image
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Pigeon @ Tue May 08, 2018 3:20 pm

Il Duce wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
Il Duce wrote:
Deuteronomy wrote:
Pigeon wrote:You will probably have to fcuk with jets anyway even just with the "basic" reed valve conversion, because it inevitably changes the breathing characteristics of the engine. That thing of the valve opening in response to crankcase depression means the timing is (a) not the same to begin with, and (b) changes with engine speed.


This.


It has 12v electronic ignition but I have no idea if this makes any difference.


Not to the jets, no - the jets are in the carb.


Yes I know where the jets are. I should have said I was referring to the timing.


Ah, when I said "timing" I was referring to the timing of the induction event, not ignition timing. Sorry for any confusion.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Thu May 17, 2018 1:19 pm

Image


The parts have arrived and they seem to fit so this afternoon I shall be Dremelling the offending lump from the crankcase and then rebuilding the engine and hoping the crank will turn.

CTF'ers!!! Unite! Cross your bloody fingers because I really need a break!
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Deuteronomy @ Thu May 17, 2018 1:30 pm

You'll be fine
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by moleamol @ Thu May 17, 2018 6:18 pm

Have you Dremelled your little lady fingers off Dooch?
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Fri May 18, 2018 9:59 am

Well I still have my fingers after dremeling the shit out of this little bastard.
The crank now spins properly. Engines case went back together easily. Piston went inside the cylinder easily. Even the pistons rings didn't put up a fight. All torqued down nicely too.
Image

Time to fit the new inlet manifold only to disover I have to remove the studs from the block.
Ok. Bit of heat. Two nuts on the stud. And there we go! Piece of piss!
Image


Going well isn't it? Too well. Second stud wouldn't budge. Tried everything and then the little bastard snapped

Image

Drilled it out which took forever. Sort of tapped it. Wacked some chemical metal in there to make sure and fitted the stud and the manifold.
Image

All that took 5 hours.

One piece of good news is that I was on an Italian smallframe forum and the 125 Nuova come up in discussion as one bloke was restoring one too. The general consensus of opinion is that as they only made 17,000 of them it should easily fetch double what I would get over here.

With that in mind I decide to try and make it more original and ordered the correct thin brake and clutch levers instead of the fat ones currently on there, a new seat lock and a standard exhaust.

Off to Italy next week so no updates for a week or so. How will you manage?
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Aesgarth @ Fri May 18, 2018 10:30 am

Il Duce wrote:Going well isn't it? Too well. Second stud wouldn't budge. Tried everything and then the little bastard snapped

I hate it when that happens
Il Duce wrote:Drilled it out which took forever. Sort of tapped it. Wacked some chemical metal in there to make sure and fitted the stud and the manifold.

That should do the trick, though i'm not sure the next person to take it apart will have anything nice to say about the chemical metal


Good work, well done. Kind of makes me want to make car progress.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Fri May 18, 2018 11:31 am

Aesgarth wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Going well isn't it? Too well. Second stud wouldn't budge. Tried everything and then the little bastard snapped

I hate it when that happens
Il Duce wrote:Drilled it out which took forever. Sort of tapped it. Wacked some chemical metal in there to make sure and fitted the stud and the manifold.

That should do the trick, though i'm not sure the next person to take it apart will have anything nice to say about the chemical metal


Good work, well done. Kind of makes me want to make car progress.


The chemical metal is only holding the stud in place so the manifold can still be removed if necessary.
I wasn't sure if there was enough metal for a helicoil so my only other alternative was to have it professionally welded and re-tapped.
Bugger that.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by tanglerat @ Fri May 18, 2018 1:18 pm

Il Duce wrote:
Aesgarth wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Going well isn't it? Too well. Second stud wouldn't budge. Tried everything and then the little bastard snapped

I hate it when that happens
Il Duce wrote:Drilled it out which took forever. Sort of tapped it. Wacked some chemical metal in there to make sure and fitted the stud and the manifold.

That should do the trick, though i'm not sure the next person to take it apart will have anything nice to say about the chemical metal


Good work, well done. Kind of makes me want to make car progress.


The chemical metal is only holding the stud in place so the manifold can still be removed if necessary.
I wasn't sure if there was enough metal for a helicoil so my only other alternative was to have it professionally welded and re-tapped.
Bugger that.


Came close there to some amature welding?
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Fri May 18, 2018 3:21 pm

tanglerat wrote:
Il Duce wrote:
Aesgarth wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Going well isn't it? Too well. Second stud wouldn't budge. Tried everything and then the little bastard snapped

I hate it when that happens
Il Duce wrote:Drilled it out which took forever. Sort of tapped it. Wacked some chemical metal in there to make sure and fitted the stud and the manifold.

That should do the trick, though i'm not sure the next person to take it apart will have anything nice to say about the chemical metal


Good work, well done. Kind of makes me want to make car progress.


The chemical metal is only holding the stud in place so the manifold can still be removed if necessary.
I wasn't sure if there was enough metal for a helicoil so my only other alternative was to have it professionally welded and re-tapped.
Bugger that.


Came close there to some amature welding?


Welding aluminium is NOT amateur so I've heard.



Saw a mig/tig no idea welder for sale in in Lidl and was very tempted though.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Aesgarth @ Fri May 18, 2018 4:46 pm

Il Duce wrote:
tanglerat wrote:
Il Duce wrote:
Aesgarth wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Going well isn't it? Too well. Second stud wouldn't budge. Tried everything and then the little bastard snapped

I hate it when that happens
Il Duce wrote:Drilled it out which took forever. Sort of tapped it. Wacked some chemical metal in there to make sure and fitted the stud and the manifold.

That should do the trick, though i'm not sure the next person to take it apart will have anything nice to say about the chemical metal


Good work, well done. Kind of makes me want to make car progress.


The chemical metal is only holding the stud in place so the manifold can still be removed if necessary.
I wasn't sure if there was enough metal for a helicoil so my only other alternative was to have it professionally welded and re-tapped.
Bugger that.


Came close there to some amature welding?


Welding aluminium is NOT amateur so I've heard.



Saw a mig/tig no idea welder for sale in in Lidl and was very tempted though.

The Lidl welder will almost certainly not do aluminium. Also aluminium welding with TIG is DIFFICULT.

Here's a couple of (steel) things I tigged together recently, just to prove i can weld a bit:
Image

Image

And here's my first attempt at sticking some aluminium together, with about 8 hours practice on flat aluminium after the above steel things.
Image
It's a shitty mess

It does get a tiny bit easier with a lot of practice though
Image

I would encourage anyone to buy a welder and have a go though, it's extremely rewarding when you get it right. So long as you learn on non-critical things.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Fri May 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Looking at your pictures confirms that chemical metal was the right thing to do.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Aesgarth @ Fri May 18, 2018 8:44 pm

Outside of getting a professional to weld it, yes, absolutely.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by minimoog @ Sun May 20, 2018 9:19 am

Aesgarth wrote:Here's a couple of (steel) things I tigged together recently, just to prove i can weld a bit:


Can you weld my exhaust? Lexus want £1050 for a new one. Or rather, half of one.
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Re: Vespa 125 Nuova Restoration

Post by Il Duce @ Mon May 28, 2018 12:12 pm

The chemical metal worked and the inlet manifold is now firmly attached. Probably.

I had a long (boring for most people) conversation with a mate in Italy who lives and breathes vespas.
From my photos he pointed out several things on my Vespa that were wrong. I thought it wouldn't bother me. I was wrong.

I changed the levers from ball-ended ones to the correct slim ended ones

Image

The exhaust was non-original but also looked shit so I bought an original:

Image
Image

And finally I found out that the 16mm diameter centre stand that came with the scooter WAS the correct type and I needn't have bought a 22mm one. The correct fixings were purchased and it's now been fitted.

I also tracked down the part that fixes the speedo in place.

Engine needs the clutch putting back in situ, then the stator, when I've extended the wires, and it should be ready to go back into the body.
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