Vespa 125 Banana.

Two wheels good.

Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:10 am

Changed the gear selector and rebuilt the gear cluster.
10 minutes work so not even worth photoing sorry.
This is getting too easy.

Just waiting for parts now, then it'll be supermaxichaos!
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Paul H @ Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:29 am

Il Duce wrote:Changed the gear selector and rebuilt the gear cluster.
10 minutes work so not even worth photoing sorry.
This is getting too easy.


We could have started calling you 'Spanners' in honour of your new found mechanical magnificence. But it's already been taken on here. Sorry.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:10 am

The bastardi I've been dealing with in Italy for the parts was dicking me about so I opened a claim in Paypal. So despite me emailing and whatsapping them several times on Friday to cancel it all, they have now said that "they don't make that cylinder kit any more" so we've sent the rest of the parts anyway and if you don't want it just refuse the package and we'll refund you. (The tracking number doesn't work of course.) This will take it past the cutoff date for a paypal claim too. Could get interesting.
All the other stuff in the package- exhaust, crank, bearings and flywheel all match with the cylinder kit.Luckily I've found the cylinder kit with another supplier so all is not lost.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by stuart @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:02 am

How did you learn to do this ID?
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:19 pm

stuart wrote:How did you learn to do this ID?


I read some books, watched some youtubes, bought some blueprints and when I got stuck, asked on forums.

It's also very important to have the right tool for the job.

ETA.. like the right baking tin.
Last edited by Il Duce on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Aesgarth @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:22 pm

Il Duce wrote:
stuart wrote:How did you learn to do this ID?


I read some books, watched some youtubes, bought some blueprints and when I got stuck, asked on forums.

It's also very important to have the right tool for the job.

ETA.. like the right baking tin.

:like:
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by stuart @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:24 pm

I just couldn't see myself ever being able to do this.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Dirk @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:25 pm

stuart wrote:I just couldn't see myself ever being able to do this.

Buy a welding set and have a go.

Whats the worst that could happen?
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Aesgarth @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:27 pm

Dirk wrote:
stuart wrote:I just couldn't see myself ever being able to do this.

Buy a welding set and have a go.

Whats the worst that could happen?

Depending on the welder and the location chosen... Nah, can't see any possible bad outcomes.

Stuart, this sort of thing is less difficult than you might expect, once you've had a bit of practice.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:28 pm

stuart wrote:I just couldn't see myself ever being able to do this.


Even if you did, how would you get it in the lift anyway?
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by tanglerat @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:13 pm

Dirk wrote:
stuart wrote:I just couldn't see myself ever being able to do this.

Buy a welding set and have a go.

Whats the worst that could happen?


This is exactly what I've been waiting to find out. Come on ID, ffs!
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:28 pm

tanglerat wrote:
Dirk wrote:
stuart wrote:I just couldn't see myself ever being able to do this.

Buy a welding set and have a go.

Whats the worst that could happen?


This is exactly what I've been waiting to find out. Come on ID, ffs!


Sorry. I spent all my money on tuning parts.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:15 am

First news on the orange one that's in Italy. Been having loads of trouble with it pissing petrol from the carb and generally misbehaving despite a full service kit being fitted. The banana one is having a bigger carb and so i took it's old carb over to Italy, fitted it and it bloody worked!!! So happy.

Anyway, banana news time!

All the parts have arrived so it's time to build a quick engine. It'll mean porting and polishing the engine cases so be prepared for a fvcking disaster.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Pigeon @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:39 pm

Remember, if you take off not enough you can always take off a little more, but if you take off too much you can never put it back.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by DI Burnside @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:02 pm

Pigeon wrote:Remember, if you take off not enough you can always take off a little more, but if you take off too much you can never put it back.


Tell that to my belly.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by S1K @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:08 pm

Pigeon wrote:Remember, if you take off not enough you can always take off a little more, but if you take off too much you can never put it back.

Well, you can weld and reshape but ID STILL HASN’T GOT A WELDER
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:11 pm

Pigeon wrote:Remember, if you take off not enough you can always take off a little more, but if you take off too much you can never put it back.



Duly noted.
From what I've seen there shouldn't be much to take off.
It's only matching the exhaust transfers at the top of the engine cases where they meet the bottom of the barrel and possibly opening up the inlet port slightly to match the new bigger inlet pipe. How hard can it be? (well that's fvkced it then)
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:15 pm

S1K wrote:
Pigeon wrote:Remember, if you take off not enough you can always take off a little more, but if you take off too much you can never put it back.

Well, you can weld and reshape but ID STILL HASN’T GOT A WELDER


I doubt it would make any difference as this would be aluminium welding and it very difficult.... as difficult as finding a woman in Swansea who has a higher IQ than the lamb in her kebab.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by S1K @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:30 pm

As if there’s any real lamb in a Swansea kebab
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Pigeon @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:55 pm

Ah, well, mention of transfer ports reminds me of when I finally got fed up with the exhaust mounting threads in the cylinder being fcuked and bought a new one.

New to me, that is, but not like new new. In fact what turned up had been bored to +20 thou and had the ports enlarged, rather neatly too. So of course I thought oh wow, the seller's pile of old parts had happened to include a racing cylinder and I'd just got lucky.

Only when I got it fitted, first the engine was difficult to start and didn't run very well, then it suddenly took off of its own accord, sent the rev counter off the scale, and stayed like that even after I pulled the HT lead off the spark plug. I had to put it in gear and stall it out. Turned out that the transfer ports had been enlarged so much that they overlapped the edges of the crankcase and were open to atmosphere, so the mixture was totally fcuked and it had done the usual two-stroke super-weak-mixture runaway thing with such enthusiasm that it turned itself into a diesel.

Such a calamity is of course easily avoided by using the gasket as a template instead of just being a dick. However it is also important to get the ports equal, because if one flows more strongly than the other it buggers up the scavenging. After I had doggied on epoxy to block the gaps and stop it running away, it still didn't work very well, and on looking inside again I found this pattern of carbon deposits on the top of the piston:

transfer-01.jpg
The piston is correctly aligned, but the arrow indicating the front is not perpendicular to the axis of the gudgeon pin.
transfer-01.jpg (13.04 KiB) Viewed 1107 times


...indicating strong flow out of the port on the left but feeble flow out of the port on the right, so the gas circulation inside the cylinder was all on the piss and the schnuerlery couldn't schnuerle properly.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:08 pm

Pigeon wrote: using the gasket as a template


This is my plan and the recommended way.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:42 am

Ohshittyfvckitybuggerybastard!

You may or may not know I had two pairs of engine cases vapour blasted.

They are identical but you always keep pairs together for the best seal and anyway one is in better condition internally than the other.

I've only gone and fitted the racing suspension bushes in the wrong bastard engine case!


So now I have to remove the old bushes from the correct case (fairly easy), remove the new bushes from the wrong case (shitter of a job to do without damaging the bushes) and then refit them in the right case.

At least I hadn't fitted the new bearings in the wrong case.



I also did a trial fit of the new cylinder. If you look at the gasket in the first two photos you can see how much material I have to remove so that the ports at 3 and 9 o clock match it. In the 3rd and 4th photo you can also see that I have to carve away at the flywheel cover so that the cylinder will drop down flat on the engine case.

Scary shit.

Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:12 am

Good news.


Got home Saturday night and within 5 minutes I'd removed the bushes without damaging them.

Image

Now I have to remove the old ones from the CORRECT casing and refit then I can get my dremel out and start destroying the casing.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:08 am

Ok. Bushes removed from wrong casing and inserting into correct one in 20 mins.

On with the Dremelling!

Here is the before picture:
Image

And here is what I did. Not bad eh? It fits flusher than it looks because it doesn't have the gasket in place or is tightened down.
Image
Image

Next time I'll be doing the porting on the casings. I'm feeling quite confident so it should be a massive fvckup.
Watch this space!
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by S1K @ Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Can you really get the mating surface flat enough with a Dremel?
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:53 pm

S1K wrote:Can you really get the mating surface flat enough with a Dremel?


It's only about 2mm that I've touched the inner part is untouched and flat. Also there's a gasket to go on top.
Anyway I've put my photos to the experts on another board and they'll tell me how shit it really is.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by manfromdelmonte @ Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:29 pm

Il Duce wrote:
It's only about 2mm that I've touched, the inner part is untouched.


That's enough about your sex life, this is a Vespa thread.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Pigeon @ Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:33 pm

Il Duce wrote:I also did a trial fit of the new cylinder. If you look at the gasket in the first two photos you can see how much material I have to remove so that the ports at 3 and 9 o clock match it.

Image


That is indeed a fcuk of a lot. A disconcerting fcuk of a lot. Have you got a photo looking up inside the cylinder from below (ideally including the gasket) to see what it's actually mating to?

Generally you don't need to do a huge amount to the transfer ports and it's more about smoothing out steps and bumps and getting both sides identical than about raw increased area. Such a big difference makes me wonder quite what is going on.

Also since I'm not familiar with the detailed wiggles of where the casting puts metal and where it doesn't, it also occurs to me to wonder if taking off that much risks going all the way through somewhere.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:12 am

Pigeon wrote:
Il Duce wrote:I also did a trial fit of the new cylinder. If you look at the gasket in the first two photos you can see how much material I have to remove so that the ports at 3 and 9 o clock match it.



That is indeed a fcuk of a lot. A disconcerting fcuk of a lot. Have you got a photo looking up inside the cylinder from below (ideally including the gasket) to see what it's actually mating to?

Generally you don't need to do a huge amount to the transfer ports and it's more about smoothing out steps and bumps and getting both sides identical than about raw increased area. Such a big difference makes me wonder quite what is going on.

Also since I'm not familiar with the detailed wiggles of where the casting puts metal and where it doesn't, it also occurs to me to wonder if taking off that much risks going all the way through somewhere.


As you said it's more important to be made to flow smoothly and both sides be balanced rather than ripping out as much metal as possible. It''s very easy to go through the casing but it can be fixed fairly easily apparently.
They are just the exhaust ports and they go up the side of the cylinder. I'll take more photos to help explain.

Also I'm not trying to squeeze every last bhp out the engine, I just want a quick engine that I actually created, not just a kit that I bolted on.

I've posted the photo of my work until now and got a big thumbs up from a very experienced engine builder.

So far so good.
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Re: Vespa 125 Banana.

Post by Il Duce @ Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:43 am

Someone on that forum has fitted the same upgrade as me.

He posted a photo of his work. The bar is set pretty high. Wish me luck today.

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