Is this some kind of fraud?

Business, employment and matters of the law.

Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by nakedninja @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:44 pm

Obviously this is all hypothetical.

Say someone worked for company A as a sales person. They then move to company B, a competitor (which may or may not be forbidden in their previous contract of employment) and start trying to poach customers from company A. Is that fraud? Is it some kind of weirder/wronger kind of fraud if they 'invent' an alias under which to do their business at company B?

To sum up: Mr. X moves from Company A to Company B (via a 'company' that is owned/invested in by B). He then tries to poach customers from A using a fake or created person/name, i.e. calling himself Mr. Y.

Were I to be at all involved in this (I don't work in sales) it would seem very wrong and somehow/borderline illegal, but I don't know which is why I'm asking you. In here.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by FurDonga @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:50 pm

The problem is that sales types belong to a sub human group ( like gingers) so our civilised notions dont really mean a lot to them
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:52 pm

Fraud.
Illegal.


It depends on the restrictive covenants in his employment contract.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Dirk @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:53 pm

Not fraud perhaps, but breach of contract from hat you say.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by nakedninja @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:01 pm

Second Marine wrote:Fraud.
Illegal.


It depends on the restrictive covenants in his employment contract.


Cool, thanks.

Arthur Scherbius wrote:Not fraud perhaps, but breach of contract from what you say.


Yeah, I wondered if it was more but seems 2M has cleared it up. Interesting.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Rod Rammage @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:02 pm

According to wiki "fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual"

Intentional? Yes.

Deception? Yes.

Made for personal gain? Yes

Do you think the cops would be interested NN? What about all the murderers, rapists and speeding motorists?

Arthur Scherbius wrote:Not fraud perhaps, but breach of contract from hat you say.


What contract is that Arthur?
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by thekungfury @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Contract law is difficult around this topic.

In theory my salesmen have signed up to a contract which states they cannot use info they gained here to go and poach customers. The trouble is employment law trumps any of these restrictive contracts because it stops people from "gainful employment".

My understanding is that if you go to another competitor, use your knowledge of the customer's sales price/margin/sales contract/whatever and your old firm can prove loss of earnings then you can be sued for using the info which is effectively company property. Proving it is difficult/impossible.

In my industry there is a bit of a merry go round and salesmen in all of our competitors have been the salesman on their patch for a number of companies. Everybody knows what goes on but everyone is powerless to prevent it. Plus there are many ways around it.

In your (hypothetical, obv) case it seems just plain weird. Surely the customers know Mr X as Mr X? If somebody came to me and said "Hello, I'm Mr Y" and I knew them as Mr X I'd think they were a bellend and never buy from them.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by nakedninja @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:07 pm

TKF wrote:In your (hypothetical, obv) case it seems just plain weird. Surely the customers know Mr X as Mr X? If somebody came to me and said "Hello, I'm Mr Y" and I knew them as Mr X I'd think they were a bellend and never buy from them.


I think, hypothetically, that Mr. X is planning on appearing as Mr. Y only through the medium of dance email.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Dirk @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:57 pm

The one thing that might help someone prove it in this case is because he is using a different name, and thus acting like he knows he is breaking the contract. Circumstantial, but it could help prove it.

Apart from Teeks, I agree, it goes on all the time and is rarely prosecuted.

Rod, the contract is the one the salesman had with his previous employer
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by nakedninja @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:00 pm

Oh I'm not looking to charge or indite anyone, just checking that it wouldn't backfire on the company or any particular individuals.

After all, I've got to hypothetically cover my own ass.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Turntable @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:22 pm

Rod Rammage wrote:According to wiki "fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual"

Intentional? Yes.

Deception? Yes.

Made for personal gain? Yes

Do you think the cops would be interested NN? What about all the murderers, rapists and speeding motorists?

?


correct

The object of your deception must be your victim for it to be fraud, of course.
I had assumed you worked in the legal profession.
Rod Rammage is a lawyer
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:23 pm

A word of warning for your hypothetical friend. Employers detest people who do this and might get solicitors involved - whilst that might mean nothing, it can cause stress and discomfort, moreso if the letters go recorded delivery to the new company.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Tumescent Acorn @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:25 pm

As Teeks says it's a contract issue, and difficult to prove.
If it got serious it would probably be a case of who had the best lawyers / deepest pockets.

I knew of a case where a chap left a large company and tried to pinch all of his previous customers. The large company tried to queer the pitch for him by contacting all of his 'old' customers telling them what he was doing and insinuating he was not to be trusted. (He wasn't in my experience)

Interestingly I saw the chap in question on telly a year or so later in a completely unrelated and for the time surprising role.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Turntable @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:25 pm

nakedninja wrote:
TKF wrote:In your (hypothetical, obv) case it seems just plain weird. Surely the customers know Mr X as Mr X? If somebody came to me and said "Hello, I'm Mr Y" and I knew them as Mr X I'd think they were a bellend and never buy from them.


I think, hypothetically, that Mr. X is planning on appearing as Mr. Y only through the medium of dance email.



THis happens with the knowledge of the client because Mr X believes this is a defence to get him our of his contract obligations i.e. if previous employer sues him for breach of contract he can say "No, I don't even deal with them. Mr Y does" and there is seemingly no evidence to prove otherwise.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Tumescent Acorn @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:25 pm

Turntable wrote:
Rod Rammage wrote:According to wiki "fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual"

Intentional? Yes.

Deception? Yes.

Made for personal gain? Yes

Do you think the cops would be interested NN? What about all the murderers, rapists and speeding motorists?

?


correct

The object of your deception must be your victim for it to be fraud, of course.
I had assumed you worked in the legal profession.
Private Detective, no ?
Rod Rammage is a lawyer
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by thekungfury @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:37 pm

Second Marine wrote:A word of warning for your hypothetical friend. Employers detest people who do this and might get solicitors involved - whilst that might mean nothing, it can cause stress and discomfort, moreso if the letters go recorded delivery to the new company.

We have always sent a lawyer's letter to the new company as a shit across the bows.

Genuine typo and staying.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Boo @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:51 pm

What does your friend's contract say, nn?

Mine (although not sales) forbid any type of information disclosure or use of it, especially if leaving the company.
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Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Anotherconvert @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:41 pm

Look up 'worlds largest off shore financial advisor group'

They took one of their old managers to court in the uk for poaching old clients out of their Brussels office and won back in 2009/10.

Damages of future earning at over £5million.

Still being appealed etc but the court bought into the argument of not only the loss of income from that client but from the potential client referrals!

Their lawyers have long arms and sharp teeth.
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Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Anotherconvert @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:42 pm

Oh, and that was with a contract that on paper looked as effective as a single piece of big roll to a post beer festival arse.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by Strawman @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:48 pm

nakedninja wrote:I think, hypothetically, that Mr. X is planning on appearing as Mr. Y only through the medium of dance email.


If the medium is modern interpretative dance then it is legions more serious, anyone who will adopt a pseudonym to do business is not to be trusted IMO, otherwise knowledge is sticky and can't be wiped M.I.B. style just because someone changes jobs.
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Re: Is this some kind of fraud?

Post by nakedninja @ Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:48 am

Thanks for your concern guys but the hypothetical Mr. X is not me or my friend, he could be someone at an entirely unrelated company to where I am and will be for the next 6 weeks.

Not to be trusted seems to be the verdict and was my feeling too, if I was approached this way I'd be very dubious.
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