Musical types - I need help!

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Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:23 pm

66 Major has become the lead singer in a band. Don’t ask.

She needs a mic, and an amp, and (I think - this was my idea based on my keen watching of singers on’t’telly) some monitor ear buds/ear things/whatever the fcuk they’re called. As you can tell, this is unfamiliar territory for me. Even if I have seen singers on telly.

So, can anyone who’s musical recommend some cheap starter kit that fits this bill? Or some better quality kit that I might be able to pick up on eBay? I really have no idea how much this stuff costs, but as Banco de Daddo will be underwriting it, if it is feasible to pick it all up for under a ton, great.

In related news, she has negotiated the purchase of a bass guitar and an amp from a friend (son of a famous actor, but that’s another story) and intends to teach herself bass from watching YouTube.

Sounds reasonable, right? I mean people learn how to swim watching YouTube. Or was that Sheldon Cooper in an episode of Big Bang Theory? Who knows.

RIGHT?
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Freddie @ Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:33 pm

Time for Dis and the Downbackers to come to your rescue. Or the Cheddar Meister.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Disastrous @ Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:37 pm

Um...is she singing or playing bass, or both? Honestly, without knowing what age she is, if she’s just decided ‘fcuk it, I’m going to sing and play bass in a band’ don’t spend much until you know if she’s any good or not...if it’s a phase, she’ll probably just patch it inside a year?

Now, as for PA, the accepted standard route is that the band as a whole make the investment in a PA system, as they’ll all use it gigging. The singer normally would get a decent mic for themselves (Shure SM58 is the one you want) and a decent stand for it. Guitarists and drummer will tend to buy their own instruments and amps.

As for in-ear monitors... :rofl:

I’ve been playing (properly) in a band since I was 15, so over 20 years (sad face) and have used them a handful of times at best. They are excellent, but they are frighteningly expensive to get ones that are any good. Also, totally impractical at any gigs where you have to do your own sound (which is most of them) and a powered desk with a couple of monitor wedges on stage are a much more workable solution. Top singing tip - use your index finger to push the stubby bit of your earlobe in, and you can hear your own voice in your head, even in a loud environment, so you can check pitch.

Tell us more about the band and style of music, setup, what other instruments and I will happily recommend things but pending serious aspirations of professionalism, don’t look further than Behringer for cheap, cheerful and actually not too bad live PA kit. I still use one of their desks because I play in bars a lot and treat my equipment like shit.

In short, you will a never get a decent PA for under a ton. That said, I started with a PA I nicked out a hotel skip.

Honestly, you can spend a fcuking fortune on this stuff but I need a tighter brief man...
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:07 pm

She is the lead singer at the moment. They’ve done a couple of school gigs. One drummer, two acoustic guitarists and her. Covers of Wolf Alice, Cranberries, Blondie, that sort of thing. The other three have their own kit. When she rehearses with them she doesn’t use a mic so just sings in competition with their amp’d guitars. Make sense so far?

At the school stuff they’ve done, she’s been provided with a mic and an amp. I think.

“A powered desk with a couple of monitor wedges on stage”. That sounds nice, dear. What is it?

Just assume you’re talking to a child. Or someone who has never heard or seen a band play,. Or who knows what a band is. This Shure SM58 - if she gets one of those, what else would she - and only she - need to get amplified vocals.

God, this is what it must be like going to see a lawyer. “I need more information”. “What information?” “All of it” “”Well, blah blah”. “No that’s the wrong information completely”...
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Disastrous @ Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:54 pm

Right, that helps actually. School band type setup makes it a bit easier...

Let me do some digging around and find some cheap and cheerful recommendations for you. A setup like that doesn’t really need monitoring at all - just a pair of PA speakers and she’ll be able to use those when they gig too. So don’t worry about wedges.

The problem here is the fcuking drummer. If he’d fcuk off and buy a cajon then the guitarists could play unplugged and she could sing beautifully with them but once you’ve got some bloke smashing at a way at a Pearl Export for all he’s worth, everyone has to get into the loudness battle.

Peavey, Yamaha, Behringer are your go-to for a cheap setup like this. I’ll find some options to suggest and send them over. I’m sure you can probably get busker style, combo amps that would do the job (like a more sophisticated version of those karaoke machines you used to be able to buy from Index (*The* catalogue shop!) but they’re pretty shite still, and won’t cut it for a gig.

So:

SM58
Quiclok/Stagg mic stand
Long XLR cable

That’s your £100 already sadly. But you should be able to get the rest for a couple of hundred more.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:17 pm

Disastrous wrote:Right, that helps actually. School band type setup makes it a bit easier...

Let me do some digging around and find some cheap and cheerful recommendations for you. A setup like that doesn’t really need monitoring at all - just a pair of PA speakers and she’ll be able to use those when they gig too. So don’t worry about wedges.

The problem here is the fcuking drummer. If he’d fcuk off and buy a cajon then the guitarists could play unplugged and she could sing beautifully with them but once you’ve got some bloke smashing at a way at a Pearl Export for all he’s worth, everyone has to get into the loudness battle.

Peavey, Yamaha, Behringer are your go-to for a cheap setup like this. I’ll find some options to suggest and send them over. I’m sure you can probably get busker style, combo amps that would do the job (like a more sophisticated version of those karaoke machines you used to be able to buy from Index (*The* catalogue shop!) but they’re pretty shite still, and won’t cut it for a gig.

So:

SM58
Quiclok/Stagg mic stand
Long XLR cable

That’s your £100 already sadly. But you should be able to get the rest for a couple of hundred more.


With the aid of google I was able to understand some of that.

Mic stand and cable are in a shopping basket. The ton budget was a bit of a guess, tbh. This stuff costs what it costs.

Bass guitar: Her plan is for her to learn how to play and then sing and play at the same time. I’m told the bass for sale is a Fender (don’t know more than that). £150 with amp. She’s paying for that herself.

Cheers, Dis! I knew you’d have a useful side eventually!
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by minimoog @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:27 am

If it's for xmas then shure, get her a shiny brand new germ-free SM58 and mic stand for her very own. You might then consider hitting your local Facebook music gear sales page to see if there are any used bargains in small PAs. They tend to come up regularly. I appreciate you won't know what you're looking at but folks could help with that.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:31 am

Disastrous wrote:The problem here is the fcuking drummer.

FY!
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:21 am

The mic is in the bag. Or whatever the gigging musician's equivalent saying is.

While Dis works up his powerpoint presentation, is this

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... Stock/1OC1

the sort of thing she needs to plug it into?
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:25 am

or is this one better?

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... onitor/CEZ

fcuk. This is like trying to choose a wine when the all you know is which label you prefer the look of.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:28 am

Greg66 wrote:The mic is in the bag. Or whatever the gigging musician's equivalent saying is.

While Dis works up his powerpoint presentation, is this

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... Stock/1OC1

the sort of thing she needs to plug it into?


No.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:29 am

Greg66 wrote:or is this one better?

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... onitor/CEZ

fcuk. This is like trying to choose a wine when the all you know is which label you prefer the look of.


Yes.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:29 am

It's EXACTLY like this, isn't it?

Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:32 am

ttwiggy wrote:
Greg66 wrote:or is this one better?

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... onitor/CEZ

fcuk. This is like trying to choose a wine when the all you know is which label you prefer the look of.


Yes.


STOP IT!

What was wrong with the first one that is better with the second one.

And no, I don't want a bag on my head, nor do I want slimline salad dressing, thank you very much.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:34 am

Greg66 wrote:
ttwiggy wrote:
Greg66 wrote:or is this one better?

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... onitor/CEZ

fcuk. This is like trying to choose a wine when the all you know is which label you prefer the look of.


Yes.


STOP IT!

What was wrong with the first one that is better with the second one.

And no, I don't want a bag on my head, nor do I want slimline salad dressing, thank you very much.


Wattage. Once everyone else is playing she won't hear what she's singing (and neither will anyone else) with the first one. If the guitarist is using a 50w amp, the singer needs at least treble that and ideally more. So the 250w of the second one will mean people can hear her, and more importantly, she will be able to hear herself.

sorry - just looked again and it's 125w. That should be adequate though.
Last edited by ttwiggy on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:41 am

Coincidentally my daughter also plays bass in a band at school and Santa is bringing her a bass + amp for Xmas. It’s a thing run by a firm that comes into the school and they’re recommending we buy this as it’s the one she plays in school.

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-B ... c-Blue/17I

Santa will probably get her this pack https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-B ... k-Blue/7NH
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:47 am

Is this a stupid thought?

Her mate is willing to sell her his bass guitar and amp. Would her mic plug into his amp?

In the future, if she were to end up singing and playing a bass at the same time, does she need two amps, one for each, or is one sufficient for both inputs?

That bass that Santa is bringing little miss Teeks doens't appear to have an XLR input, which is the mic output.

Jump tp 3.20:

Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3isQI0nXQRE
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:53 am

Yes, a bass amp can be used as a mic amp and a lot of 'garage' bands do this as bass amps can be big bang for reasonable bucks. It's not a good idea to sing and play through the same amp though, as what is a good setting for a bass guitar is unlikely to be a good setting for vocals.

Singers sing through a PA, with a monitor or two so they can hear what they're singing (monitors are those angled speakers that singers/lead guitarists put one foot on to look cool. They are pointed towards the band so the band can hear themselves - PA systems throw all the sound out front but it can be almost 'silent' on stage).
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:54 am

Just to add to the confusion, a bass guitar can 'DI' through a PA too. But ideally you'd run it through a head first (as in a bass amp head - so you can control the tone).
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:56 am

Also, you can get a XLR to jack convertor.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by S1K @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:01 pm

Lemmy sang and played bass and he used a pair of 100W Marshall SuperBass II amps on top of 4x12" and 4x15" cabinets.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by ttwiggy @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:04 pm

spast1kunt wrote:Lemmy sang and played bass and he used a pair of 100W Marshall SuperBass II amps on top of 4x12" and 4x15" cabinets.


I don't think he sang through that rig though. In fact, I'm not sure that Lemmy's voice needed amplification.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:07 pm

I don't want my daughter to turn into, or to emulate Lemmy. In any respect whatsoever.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by minimoog @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:33 pm

ttwiggy wrote:
Greg66 wrote:or is this one better?

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... onitor/CEZ

fcuk. This is like trying to choose a wine when the all you know is which label you prefer the look of.


Yes.


It's got a tiny 5" driver though. I'd go 8 or 10" at least.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by minimoog @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:40 pm

Lot more money but loads of power and just enough controls built in to get started with a mic, plus Mackie is decent gear. Would this be out of range Greggers? A small mixer could be added later to give more input flexibility.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mackie-Thump-15-PA-Speaker/dp/B00LTZHOC2/ref=sr_1_11?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1512131708&sr=1-11&keywords=powered+pa+speaker

Might be overkill but there's nowt worse than shit under-powered PA.

Edit: sorry I meant the 12" version. The 15" will be pretty bulky

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mackie-Thump-12-PA-Speaker/dp/B00IN2WHHQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512132685&sr=8-1&keywords=mackie+thump+12
Last edited by minimoog on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:01 pm

Hmm. In excess of 200 over the 100 that the mic/stand will cost is pushing the mission creep a bit too far.

I've got some speakers at home with small drivers that can produce a lot of volume, so a small driver wouldn't necessarily be a write off for me. It's more about how the thing performs at higher volumes (admittedly my home speakers fall some way outside the price points we're talking about here).
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by minimoog @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 pm

Greg66 wrote:Hmm. In excess of 200 over the 100 that the mic/stand will cost is pushing the mission creep a bit too far.

I've got some speakers at home with small drivers that can produce a lot of volume, so a small driver wouldn't necessarily be a write off for me. It's more about how the thing performs at higher volumes (admittedly my home speakers fall some way outside the price points we're talking about here).


I hear you but for comparison that Behringer B205 has a 5.25" speaker (like the one in the door of your car) and is 125watts RMS. The Mackie has a 12" speaker and is 500w RMS.

That's a serious difference.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by minimoog @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:07 pm

The B205 product sheet says it's for hanging on your mic stand pointing at your face as a personal monitor. It's tiny.
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by minimoog @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:25 pm

I can understand why you wouldn't want to shell out on expensive gear if you don't yet know where she's going with all this, which is where buying used can come in. Generally someone else has taken the depreciation hit so if you decide to sell unwanted stuff on later you won't lose too much, as long as you buy well. PA is perhaps a bit tricky because it can lead a hard life, also judging by the chancers on ebay a lot of people are asking near-new prices for old gear. Which is why I suggested checking on facebook for a music gear sales group near you, people tend to know each other a bit more on there (local semi-pro muso network kinda thing) so there tend to be fewer pisstakers.

It's all a bit daunting when you're off your subject I know :)
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Re: Musical types - I need help!

Post by Greg66 @ Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:03 pm

Well, the mission creep crept. And crept, and then broke into a full flat out run. And all the while Dis slept. Bloody drug addled musician. Probably od’d somewhere on marijuana. Or pot.

I went with the Mackie Thump 12. And the Shure mic, stand and cable.

While I was contemplating the potential foolishness of this purchase, and the implausibility of being able to sing and play guitar at the same time, 66 Major told me that the purchase of the bass has been deferred slightly, and then showed me a video of her band rehearsing “Zombie” this evening. I was pretty impressed! So all is well in the world again.

Cheers moogs!
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